In light of all the discussion regarding algorithmic champ design with standardized ability costs, I wanted to post this video for those of you who haven't yet seen it: In particular, I thought this video is relevant to the point that Calisk brought up recently, where he insists that the developers will continue to build-in hidden "X variables" which upset the supposedly-standardized and algorithmic costing of runes. He said this in reply to some players saying that it's "the end" of shoeboxed and meta "2x Auto Include" runes: As the video points out, "Perfect Imbalance" is a standard game-design practice that creates a shifting meta-game and can come from unit-interactions as well as intentional over and under-costing, as Calisk describes. What are your thoughts about the revamp and DOG-design choices? Will they intentionally under-cost some runes to create demand for them (i.e. power creep on new expansions)? Will some runes (in particular LE's) continue to be intentionally under-costed and OP?
I doubt anything will be undercosted but I do think that there should be allowance for variables because certain units will recieve more/less value from certain combinations of abilities. For example; Sentinel would be vastly more useful on a champion with Nora Incarnate than it would be on a champion with no on hit abilities. But both champions will be paying the same amount for the same ability despite the power differential. Granted I doubt Nora Incarnate would ever end up on a champion with Sentinel but just proving a point. Variables exist for a reason. The issue is when they are not used carefully or for simple powercreep reasons.
- We want it but we don't want it. A perfect algorithmic system is only "perfect" in the early stages of a game before you hit critical mass for rune/card collection numbers. Otherwise you end up making the same rune over and over. I take my hat off to devs that delay the inevitable by making creative balancing choices within the algorithm but eventually the champions will become stale. - Warcharged skeezick was an example at its time as a unique form of tanking , kudos for making a tank role interesting but eventually you either have to keep "inventing" new abilities (complexity creep) or make new champs more efficient (power creep) ...or what pox has done "both". - So we think we "want" all champs to be disectable into nora cost per stat and ability perfectly until we run across an already shoebox rune being recosted to 90 nora due to nora calculator "LAW". You have to tweak it or else you wouldn't need devs, you would just plug things into the nora calculator and spit it out. Abilities and factions interactions with runes affects their cost..and it is likely to continue to do so.... or else we will have a staler meta then we have now. You would just take the champs that are the best nora calculator work arounds.
what has your observation been of the pox meta? does it shift due to players chosing to use tactic B to counter tactic A and so on resulting in a shifting meta, or is it simply the most efficient runes being quickly found, and then the meta becomes stale until the devs release a new most efficient set of runes? if there is any 'shifting' going on it is simply the same top players just trying out the different builds until they settle on their favorite, the meta then is simply defined by WHO is playing moreso than WHAT they are playing.
more or less what chief and mark said. this game's balance cannot. can not. stressing this. be reduced to a simple formula where you put in a combination of abilities and stats on the one side and the perfect cost comes out on the other. most of that, to me, is because of how abilities are priced (though stats run into the same thing, just to a much lesser degree). there's no part of the formula that can properly account for other abilities, everything instead is taken in a vacuum and then thrown next to parallel vacuums and tallied up individually with no regard for interaction you can't properly price a lone ability for all possible interactions it may have, because the bottom line is that some games it may be useless- worth 0. but some games it may, with or without the help of another ability, be the deciding factor. it's rather difficult for me to put a pricetag on a thing that wins a game. if you try to find the consistent middle ground then you'll fail every time. it's an approximation. and @Ragic, there's been some of all of that, and to me it mostly depends on who's playing at the moment. i don't think that the game has gone for any real length of time without at least 1 s-tier player or at least a decent smattering of a-tier. the thing is, when there're more high-powered players around, there tends to be more of a meta-countermeta thing going on. when there're fewer, there tends to just be a meta. and there are certain people who run arguably subpar decks and still wreck most people they run into at the upper ranks (everyone was laughing to start off with when tiny busted out zombies, now they just cry. he's not the only one, and that's not the only deck)
In the past it was to expensive and time consuming to adjust. pox doesn't easily allow for players to adjust so the champ A> B but C>B and A>C logic is not an option even though in my opinion it has always been the case for pox. at one point in pox's history FS> ST ST> UD UD>FS but during those times the arguments from UD players were to nerf ST, ST wanted FS nerfed, and FS wanted UD nerfed, nobody even considers trying the other factions because we simply can't invest the time and money required to accomplish it, knowing that even if we did switch, the next set would come out and completely change the meta anyway. those that could TINY Dragon for example would usually end on top because they could adjust to the meta as needed.
another thing worth noting is that, for the most part, the well established big pox names have an easier time getting whatever runes they want. not as traded as often as loans, these people are generally assumed to be safe bets. i was in the habit of loaning out random things to gav, taylor, devils, ryv, gemma, tiny, and probably more but i kinda deleted the list (oops) i was only potentially burned once, but i got there before anything happened. i also managed to lose a few runes by forgetting who the hell had them, but honestly if i need them i can just borrow them off someone #livindatlyfe
not to sidetrack too much, but that rune swapping that goes on tends to increase the more you spend, to the point where the players with most income to spend on the game are also the same players getting the most benefit out of a non payer system (swapping runes). Now if you took away trading (the ability to swap or loan runes), would those same players do without, or spend more to get what they wanted?
not sure why we'd remove trading and swapping runes, those are utility features useful to all players, and collect-ability can bring in users as much as push them away, especially free players who need constant minor achievements to be maintained. what needs to be managed is the amount of runes a new user needs to compete, and the difficulty in acquiring those runes and finally the amount of extra work required after they get them. MTG handled the first with formats, draft is the initial requiring no previous rune collections, standard block allows players to get in with a minimal collection, and the formats continue on with that style of progression. difficulty is a non issue for MTG all cards can be bought at any hobby shop, or ebay'd for an average fee, or you can draft and hope you get them, end of the day though this is still quite pricey, which is fine for a game like MTG that has millions of players, and PRO TOURS with cash prizes. this is not fine for pox at it's current level. In MTG once you have the cards you are ready to go, that card is as good in your hands as it would be in a PRO players hands, he will know what to do with it better then you, but the point is you are on even ground, that is not the case in pox.
I believe if strong affiliation lines and even stronger faction lines were drawn you would have more flexibility in rune design and nora cost per rune/abilities within each faction. For example ranged champs would cost more in one faction than a beater or tank would in another and vice versa.
I think over time abilities will be able to consider other abilities on the same champion. i.e. Dissipate may have a different cost depending on the range of the champion. Arrow Throw may check how this champion can avoid ranged attacks (Dodge, Elusive, Horrific Aura, etc) I imagine the program they use could eventually factor in these things. But not for the raw re-vamp. And it is raw, I don't think anyone thinks this is their final iteration. @Dagda I wouldn't say they need to price an ability for any interaction not involving the champion it's on That would defeat the point of making a BG with synergy.
