I'll be entirely fair, i love the little things. But they're just terrible gameplay wise. So i decided to create this thread so we can discuss what exactly is wrong with them, and how to fix them in a way that is both fun and effective. Personally, the two things i think is wrong with them are the facts that they are pretty much overshadowed by all other UD champions in whatever they're suppoused to do, and that the champions abilities have no consistency.
I think the biggest problem with them is that there is 7 of them which only comes up to 14 if you go full gobo bg, I threw in x2 ireguards for lulz I guess.
yeah, pretty sure they were never demon unless the first few released were and then they got their own theme/race
So either you think I'm saying this stuff just cause or can't be bothered to look it up first :| Ugh really a second one? You'd think I'd have enough credibility to merit a simple search at what I'm referring to.
not like I was attacking you or anything, simply saying I did not think goblins as a race also had demon, gloombringer having demon is just to go with him using blood so without race demon him having blood would have been silly. and you also said "them" so I assumed you meant all of them. My bad for ever doubting you though.
goblins are not a theme right now, they are just scattered runes that share a race and one mechanic, lots of development required to make them a theme, not just simply fixes, lots of heavy design decisions have to be made, I think that's beyond the scope of we players. That's only my opinion of course.
@Bluefinish this is on topic, it directly correlates to what they are able to get as a theme, and how they grow afterwards. It's important to define, before we can even have a conversation about it. I want to completely segregate them now, so they can do their own thing, but we can't do that when we have justifications like the above for Blood magic, which doesn't produce blood balls so units of any class benefit from the ability (You could make an argument of whether or not this is the sort of thing we want to see on goblins though, at all though). Also, I understand the 'them' is a bit misleading, so I'll be magnanimous and concede on that point, but I meant 'them' in the sense that ALL CURRENT and ANY FUTURE goblin runes cannot and should not be demons for them to be a successful theme.
I agree, demon should not be anywhere near goblins. UD has enough race demon and deserves more races, imo, like the other factions. I was happy to see Minotaurs and gobos actually getting a little more, but it seems the goblins were left behind which sucks.
I wouldn't mind seeing goblin gloom loose demon and blood magic and getting his range back in return. give demonologist blood magic or something.
Gloombringer was the best goblin by far, and he got completely gutted in the revamp, losing escalation, leech vitality, and going from 4-6 range to 1-3 range. (he did lose about 20 nora cost, but it wasn't worth it) I've always wanted to try goblins; they look like they'd be a lot of fun with goblin thievery, but I don't think they'd be very practical.
The goblins most definetly got nerfed hard at the revamp. Heck, they didn't have much going for them in the first place but revamp just ruined them. There was clearly not much thought put into designing goblins in the first place. They were given 2 fire champions, one sneaker, A utility champion and the gloombringer. Really, i think spellkaiser is the only goblin champion that is worth ANYTHING. The ''racial''of goblins, if you can call it that, is poorly designed. there is nothing wrong with the racial per se, it's cool. You steal a random ability from your foe and give it to you goblins. Cool! but the problem is only 2 Goblins have this ability (both which are UPGRADE ABILITIES, mind you), which alone brings so many problems and means the rest of your champions are just tagging along. One way to fix this would be to give every goblin thievery, but that would be OP as hell, with Goblins possibly transforming into super champions in just one turn. Not to mention the whole ability is random, so it can well end up screwing you up. And having a random element be the focus of a racial theme just makes either you pissed because you keep getting crappy abilities, or your foe pissed because you keep getting lucky and getting the best abilities from their champions. You could of course fix this by making the ability steal only affect the user, but then it wouldn't be much of a theme now would it? I apologise for ranting, but Goblin's must be the worst designed theme in poxnora. Maybe it was never meant to be a theme? Then why make an entire expansion revolve around them? The question is, how can this theme be fixed?
@Bluefinish they could make goblin thievery last for a limited time and have it use CD instead of losing the ability?
Hmmm, that could work. Not sure it's much of a ''thievery'' if you lose what you stole a short while after, but it's better for sure, if all goblins get it. Maybe goblins get bored very quickly of what they stole?
He didn't lose leech vitality until the 2nd patch after the revamp. He was pretty good even without escalation and range (I was running gobs at the time). Losing leech utterly destroyed his viability though. I was winning quite a lot with gobs until he got gutted. Sadly gobs are back in the shoebox. It a damn shame because win or lose I had tons of fun. On a side note I would love to see a catapult that throws broots in ronin!
I like to think of Goblin thievery as an alternative to bestow. We could stratify the ability and give it to every goblin. Basically units with thievery Could steal an upgrade ability, and a unit with greed gets whatever is stolen. Could make it a barb style thing where only one Goblin Glutton (messing around with names) can be on the field at once and if it dies the next closest unit takes over. But let's take a second and define them, and what we'd want: Trickery (Different than Imps who are simply mischievous for its own sake, goblins want something and will blind you, trap you, slow you, etc to get it). (Banditry, Pillage, Pilfer) They are deceitful, but with purpose. They generally have low health, but unlike most of the underdepths units they do feature ranged options, and otherwise unseen mastery over magic and spellcraft. (Cast: Cauterize, Adaptation, Annihilate, Magic Bomb, Teleport) They work in numbers with abilities that benefit from having more of them (Bravery, Call to Arms, Encouraged, Thievery) They have an affinity to fire. Let's add to this list and build from there.
They've never been demons; at least, not since I started playing in like 2008. The problem with Goblins is the same as it's been since they became a theme: they suck. They just suck, overall. Only a few of them got the nifty "racial," most of them go down like a bag of hammers if you look at them cross-eyed, they have almost no synergy with the rest of UD, they're too expensive for what you get because many of them have silly sandbags, there aren't enough of them, and every time any one of them becomes "imbalanced," it gets hacked off at the knees (Gloombringer with 1 range and he still lost Leech?). Honestly, I could care less about Goblins. I'll splash them in where they fit, when they fit, but they have never been a decent theme, so I don't "miss" them.
