I felt a swelling of Dutch/European pride listening to Geert Wilder's Speech to Turkey

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by newsbuff, Mar 12, 2017.

  1. SireofSuns

    SireofSuns I need me some PIE!

    Again, I think removing the "winner takes all" system that various states have (I believe almost all of the swing states are this way?) would help to improve the current system.
    It might not fix it totally, but I think that would help in working towards something more akin to the British parliament (I actually do like the idea of a parliament).
    I think the reason we don't have it is because back when all of this stuff was being put into place:
    Granted, I kinda understand why they did it, the American colonists felt they had no representation whatsoever. And even when it was finally discussed favorably by the British, the American colonists had grown too bitter and proud to backtrack.
    For the most part, the system has worked, albeit haphazardly. Look at how well America has done over the past few hundred years for being such a comparatively young country, we've had plenty of mistakes, certainly, but the EC hasn't completely ruined the country, despite what some may think.

    Granted, all of the latest surge of hate towards the EC is because of the latest presidential election.
    Trump ended up being behind by a very small margin (a few million), most of which came from California. So while the EC isn't anywhere near perfect, it's still helped quite a bit by ensuring that some places, like California and Texas, don't rule the elections due to their massive populations. And again, I think removing the "winner takes all" system from states would fix many of the problems that the EC currently has.
    Popular vote LOOKS really good, but ends up not being what people think it is. That whole deal with psychology really plays a big factor, and is, in my opinion, why something like the EC can be helpful.
    That is, popular vote doesn't mean that everyone's vote is equal. People in densely populated areas (not more pop, just more concentrated) would have more voting power than people in less dense areas.

    That would have been nice in America.
    Though, to some extent, it is happening. It's actually a big part of why Trump won. I spoke to a LOT of people that had previously voted for Obama, and they chose to vote for Trump. Apparently it wasn't uncommon either, many American Democrats have gotten sick of their party (mainly due to the whole deal with Sanders) and left it, going to the Republicans, Libertarians, the Green Part, etc. It's happened a bit with the Republicans due to the schism between Trump and the other lead Republicans, but not nearly as much.

    Don't give up hoping for the fall of the two party system yet, we've got a ways to go!

    I'd rather see slow changes for the better anyway, it's much easier to work with. Unfortunately, slow changes also means it's harder for people to see what might be bad about the change right away, which can cause a lot of issues.
     
  2. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    No, it isn't. In fact, it's the opposite. The hate against the EC is the LOWEST it's been for awhile because of the latest election:

    [​IMG]

    What changed is that Republicans were more or less split on the issue, but with Trump's win they now overwhelming support the EC.

    [​IMG]

    Even Trump himself was against the EC in 2012:

    upload_2017-6-4_11-5-8.png

    There were proposed constitutional amendments in the 60s and 70s to change the way the Electoral College works:
    https://library.cqpress.com/cqalmanac/document.php?id=cqal70-1291702

    "A proposed constitutional amendment (S J Res 1) to abolish the electoral college system of choosing Presidents and substitute direct, popular election died in the Senate in 1970, the victim of filibusters by Southern and small state Senators.

    The Senate bill, sponsored by Birch Bayh (D Ind.), was similar to one passed by the House in 1969, except for the date each would become effective.

    Both bills set a minimum of 40 percent of the popular vote as sufficient to elect a President and Vice President. If no Presidential candidate received 40 percent of the vote, a runoff would be scheduled between the two frontrunners.

    A constitutional amendment requires approval by two-thirds of the House and Senate and three-fourths of the state legislatures. The Senate bill would have become effective a year after the April 15 following ratification by 38 of the 50 states; the House version set the effective date at one year after the Jan. 21 following ratification.

    Ratification would have meant the first constitutional change in the electoral vote system since 1804.

    But a coalition of Southern and some small state Senators was able to prevent the resolution from coming to a vote by filibustering."​

    So honestly, "because Trump" is a false narrative pushed by right-wingers who want to say "you lost, get over it" but the reality is that people have recognized its problems for a long, long time - the difference is that a bunch of people suddenly changed their minds about the EC because Trump won due to it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
    Geressen and NevrGonaGivUup like this.
  3. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    This is a myth. I have previously demonstrated mathematically that large states would not automatically rule the elections much/any more than they do under EC:

    http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php...l-debate-last-night.24747/page-49#post-347137
     
  4. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Winner takes all for states is precisely the problem.

    As I have previously argued, this is basically just suggesting something that it is closer to PV, but not complete national PV. National PV is simply the most basic "winner takes all" model where the winner takes "all" of an individual vote. If you split it up by district (for example) you are essentially saying that we don't have an EC anymore and are moving towards a PV system, and I'd be ok with that, but it is not a valid defense of the EC.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
    Geressen likes this.
  5. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Electoral college isn't going away, and if it does you might as well just eliminate the voting system entirely.
     
  6. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    ^ quality addition to the discussion
     
  7. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    that is quite a prediction.
     
  8. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    You are aware there are many different systems in use all over the world right now, right? (Including within the US - where the EC is ONLY used for the Presidential election.) That it's not EC or nothing?
     
  9. SireofSuns

    SireofSuns I need me some PIE!

    Ah, that is new information for me.
    I suppose then that it's really more just that I've noticed/seen more of the dislike for it than I used to. Which is ironic, because I was less invested in this election than the last few.

    Despite my critiques of a popular vote system, I would like to move towards it. Though, I don't think moving directly to it would happen, it would need to be done in more manageable and "easier to swallow" steps (in order to avoid strong backlash to it).

    I tend to think of this, ^,
    and this ^, as slightly separate issues.
    I do disagree with the amount of rather uninformed support for the EC, though I think the issue of right-aligned Americans saying "you lost, get over it" is a separate issue. They tend to say that out of fear that the election results would somehow be overturned (which at this point would be extremely polarizing and quite possibly harmful), as well as because of grudges and bitterness from being told the same thing during Obama's elections (same rhetoric, just switched over which side was saying what).

    Right. I didn't mean (or don't remember meaning) to defend the EC.

    We should switch to a lottery system, just disenfranchise everyone equally! Nothing can go wrong. Nothing at all.
     

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