I felt a swelling of Dutch/European pride listening to Geert Wilder's Speech to Turkey

Woops

 

what does kindness to the unfortunate give me in terms of profit though?


how many extra mansions can i get for that?

 

statists like to conflate the moral obligation for charity with government-coerced welfare and think they're being clever. But nah, you ain't fooling anyone. Nobody is arguing against charity, compassion, and feeding the hungry or whatever. We're arguing about the most pragmatic and ethical method of alleviating suffering. I happen to believe laissez faire does the best job of that. And pointing to instances of heavily-regulated industries like healthcare as examples of the failure of capitalism is dumb af

 

out of curiosity, what examples of laissez faire success do you have in mind?

 

the industrial revolution

 

the success of which to your mind was what?

 

doubling life expectancy, halving infant mortality, and ending child labor

 

You think the problem with healthcare and capitalism is too much regulation as opposed to wounded people not being able to move themselves hundreds of miles as to receive vital aid in a hospital that is less expensive, keep in mind that hospitals often merge their management to cut down on their costs. so the next hospital over is essentially the same 'company'.

?

and you are saying wellfare for the less fortunate should be charity I too would like for you to answer Dagda:

of course it is not like the rich, wherever they live, are constantly trying to make themselves richer at the detriment of the rest of the country.

 

You people have been drinking the kool aid for too long.

I can counter your argument in two sentences:

America has:

1. Reason nr 1 of bankruptcy are medical bills. That's not even a thing in the civilized world
2. 44 000 people die each year because they don't have access to basic healthcare, because hospitals can deny them care if they don't

Your laissez faire has never worked in healthcare. I don't know how you can be this delusional at this point in time to think that your healthcare system is even close to working. Again, I'm not sure if this is literal idiocy or if you don't know any better because that's how you were raised, but honestly, astounding. Your charity is doing great things indeed, too bad every other modern nation in the world has a normal functioning healthcare system that works perfectly.

Source: I pay 82 euro a year for full coverage. What up.

 

are you suggesting that I think our healthcare system is functional? when did i say that?

 

my understanding is that child labor ended more due to government regulation of the industrial revolution than as a natural byproduct of the revolution itself.

so, go go regulation?

 

yeah I think it sort of went like this:

Families produce goods in house ( using child labour)->
Goods are mass produced in factories for lower prices -> families struggle to make ends meet so Children take jobs in factories or are sent to work on farms to help the family survive->regulations and social programs are created for a vareity of reasons. workers rights improve the situation of labourers etc.

Though I think he is trying to argue that the rise in GDP made these programs and regulations possible as evidenced by the fact that child labour is still prevalent in poor regions of the planet ( Africa/Asia) though it has fallen to as low as 12% globally?

but then did these regulations and social programs not come from labourers fighting for their rights? they certainly were not put into place by the industrialists... and I doubt this can be used as an example as to why corporations and oligarchs should be left unchecked today.

 

blah blah blah whomever controls the means of production controls the state and that power belongs to the proletariat.
the state should work and protect everyone based on their needs. not work for the rich based on their profits and willingness to part with their profits to do 'charity'.
*something about change not coming from above and religion being the opium of the masses*

apparently that makes me a statists to newsbuff.

 

And this is how the economic crisis started.

 

Child labor was not ended by legislative fiat; child labor ended when it became economically unnecessary for children to earn wages in order to survive -- when the income of their parents became sufficient to support them.... [T]he Industrial Revolution and its consequent prosperity were the achievement of capitalism and cannot be achieved under any other politico-economic system.

"The Effects of the Industrial Revolution on Women and Children"
Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal
---

The nineteenth century was the ultimate product and expression of the intellectual trend of the Renaissance and the Age of Reason, which means: of a predominantly Aristotelian philosophy. And, for the first time in history, it created a new economic system, the necessary corollary of political freedom, a system of free trade on a free market: capitalism.

No, it was not a full, perfect, unregulated, totally laissez-faire capitalism—as it should have been. Various degrees of government interference and control still remained, even in America—and this is what led to the eventual destruction of capitalism. But the extent to which certain countries were free was the exact extent of their economic progress. America, the freest, achieved the most.

Never mind the low wages and the harsh living conditions of the early years of capitalism. They were all that the national economies of the time could afford. Capitalism did not create poverty—it inherited it. Compared to the centuries of precapitalist starvation, the living conditions of the poor in the early years of capitalism were the first chance the poor had ever had to survive. As proof—the enormous growth of the European population during the nineteenth century, a growth of over 300 per cent, as compared to the previous growth of something like 3 per cent per century.

“Faith and Force: The Destroyers of the Modern World,”
Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

-----

Capitalism has created the highest standard of living ever known on earth. The evidence is incontrovertible. The contrast between West and East Berlin is the latest demonstration, like a laboratory experiment for all to see. Yet those who are loudest in proclaiming their desire to eliminate poverty are loudest in denouncing capitalism. Man’s well-being is not their goal.

“Theory and Practice,”
Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

 

absolute, demonstrable, documented mythological falsehood.

 

Mad internet nerds

 

So lets review here;

@Astamir ; personal expertise or at least knowledge in the field. brings up the work of a university professor to support his side.

@newsbuff ;copy pasting Ayn Rand fanwebsite book recomendation?

 

So let's review here:

@Geressen Argument from Authority