This is a comment I made under another subject, and I thought it'd be a good idea to put it out there, get your thoughts on it. Let's get started; Let's say Fire Bomb (1,2,3) costs (6,10,14) nora respectively. Now, bombs are useful in every faction, but some more than others. If you take champion X that has Fire bomb, using the current system, it's going to cost (6,10,14) nora more respectively. Using the same example of fire bomb, but with an algorithm for each faction alone. Fire Bomb is more useful in UD and SL rather than in IS or FW. Take champions X, Y and Z. Champion X (UD): Fire bomb (6,12,16) Champion Y (IS): Fire bomb (5, 11, 14) Champion Z (SL): Fire bomb (6, 11, 15) Keep in mind I didn't do any calculations to adjust these costs, so don't take them too seriously. They're all fictional, and costs would be rearranged according to the Devs if this system were in tact. Basically, UD has Fire Volatility, which means Fire bomb is going to be extremely efficient in UD, or Fire Acolyte perhaps. (Champion X) On the other hand, IS doesn't have anything that really synergizes with fire bomb, so it should, by default, cost less. (Champion Y) Lastly, SL has its uses for Fire bomb, but not in comparison to UD. There's not much that synergizes apart from the amp (also found in UD) and fire acolyte (which is found in a higher ration in UD when comparing it to SL) If costs worked like this, I believe we could actually find true balance to the algorithm. I could be wrong, again, but it does look like it's an improvement to the current algorithm.
This isn't practical for the developers, since they can't foresee which interactions the abilities will be used for. Additionally, this would consume a lot of man-hours that DoG has shown that they don't have. I would count us lucky if we got a normal overhaul of ability costs without taking faction synergy into account
I had an idea for an algorithm. see (+5/-5 nora offset, automatically calculate champion nora cost.) post. I seriously think this would work great. http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgame...calculate-champion-nora-cost.5413/#post-75059
An algorithm can work, it's just a matter of getting all the ability costs right. It's when we get into this weird 'but what if this exists' that things start getting skewed. Fire Bomb does increasing damage over its ranks, and as such costs x/y/z. Fire volatility is for all intents an amplification of fire effects, and as such, should be costed accordingly. Does it proc from various fire effects, yes? Does that mean the price should be changed per champ it shows up on? In my opinion, no. If the ability is costed correctly, the 'boosted synergy' that volatility provides is already paid for. Yes, it's stronger in conjunction with an AoE effect as compared to activating from an aura, but that shouldn't matter if it's costed right. Same with abilities like Strength of Body. Yes, it gets more powerful the more hp a unit has to start with, BUT, if the ability itself is costed correctly (imo, more than it currently costs), than the unit is already paying for that 'internal synergy' with what is hopefully properly costed hp costs. But this is just my opinion, and I could very well be wrong. But I'm pretty sure that when we find the right costs for abilities and stats, we'll start seeing much fewer outliers.
Can you elaborate on this? Who are "we"? What methods did "we" use to establish this as fact? Show your work please. This algorithm barely works, but that could (and I'm optimistically assuming it will) be corrected by looking at ability costs again. Some of the biggest offenders right now are actually the champs that cheat the algorithm with baseless discounts (titan, hero).
With "we" I meant people who have evolved from primates. I didn't think it hard to think for yourself for 5 minutes to realize that fixed prices on rune abilities are completely useless. I can't be bothered linking you to the original threads, but I'll summarize it for you. Take abilities such as life siphon. Champs with different dmg, speed, multi att, range can have this ability. Though for each champ this ability is dependant on other factors other than the ability itself. It becomes stronger or weaker depending on other abilities/stats on that champ, even the faction it is in. Therefore it would be a dumb move to cost life siphon the same way on every champ. Life siphon being an obvious example, most abilities work like this. The cohesion between abilities, champs, stats and other runes are what is important. Colosal on a 40hp 0 defense champ shouldn't cost the same as colossal on a 3 def, tough 2 50hp champ. TLDR Other factors determine the value of an ability as well, not just the ability itself.
So when you say that fixed prices on rune abilities are completely useless, what you actually mean is that the game is too complex for an ability's cost to accurately reflect the value that it brings to the champion. Your example focuses on the interactions within an individual champion, but the complexity extends outside it as well - to your own deck composition, your map, and your opponent's deck composition (eg. the amount of debuffs/2x2 champions your opponent has could reduce the value of that ability to zero). An algorithm is just a set of instructions that respond to any amount of variables to produce an output. This could take the form of DOG's (essentially 3 iterations old) pricing formula, deciding what is an appropriate cost by following your gut (is this what people who have evolved from primates decided was the best alternative?), or even by developing an ephemeral pricing system that analyzes your deck, your opponent's deck, your map, and the turn order before surprising you with champion costs when they are revealed (when they are revealed would also figure into their costs). Complexity is a tough issue to deal with. Western Civilization (a system created by people who have evolved from primates and didn't think it hard to think for themselves for five minutes) has embraced the scientific method as an approach to complexity. Implicit in this method is the understanding that the world is extremely complex (even more complex than a pox nora champion) and that an absolute understanding of the laws of nature is really hard to figure out (even tougher than the true value of an ability on a pox nora champion). But rather than thinking for themselves for 5 minutes to realize that trying to understand the world is completely useless, Western Scientists have realized that, even though our methods can't nail down the endless complexity of those universal truths yet, we can come up with theories that approximate those truths (just like how an algorithm can approximate the nora value an ability brings to a game). These theories are always flawed, but we keep trying and keep coming up with new theories that give an even better approximation of the universal laws of nature. Winston Churchill, a man who descended from primates, thought for himself for 5 minutes and realized that "Democracy is the worst form of government." I agree with him on that point and, by the same token, agree with you when you (and all other people who have evolved from primates and who didn't think it hard to think for themselves for 5 minutes) say that fixed ability pricing is the worst way to balance this game.
Hence the "other factors". Every case needs to be reviewed seperatly to such an extend that the guideline cost which the algorithm provides can be swung so much that it ends up being the developer's call anyway. Yes Pox is too complex. Even complex enough that your guideline algorithm doesn't have a use other than giving a number that will be severely altered anyway.
All in all, there isn't a "Perfect" algorithm. Poxnora evolves from time to time, and things change accordingly. We've experienced not one, but THREE different ways to upgrade champions. Octopi version, where you could boost base stats, SOE version, where you'd have 4 abilities to pick from, and finally, the Owls' version, you can change two fixed base abilities into a better version or into something completely different. If there were to be an at least half decent algorithm, it'd take more than just one formula. They'd have to combine several formulas instead of using a "constant" one. When using a constant formula, you're comparing, indirectly, one champion to another champion. I don't see Colossal Boa having the same price as Fire Giant. I don't see Glacial titan with the same cost as Dreadnought, yet they all follow the same formula. If there were a system that could distinguish the capabilities of a champion, along with taking a second, or even a third look to the base stats, we wouldn't have such a big problem, but there will still be a few complications here and there. I just believe this "Formula" shouldn't be a constant one, there should be a variety. I mean let's face reality here, Euan is 80 nora, Serkan is 96 (If I recall). Euan brings far more to the table in comparison to Serkan.
To many variables, owls need to be more willing to adjust by hand post ballpark cost. Things like incorperal or tough are very different on a 30 hp and 70 hp champ
