Because quite the number are in desperate need of it. Feel free to add to the list, I'll try to add all nominations backed by ubiquitous agreement to the OP.
I have to disagree with this. Bok Warden seems quite great power wise, especially in FF. Between her natural dmg, the faction bonus and Enrage, she deals a great amount of dmg, not to mention that she has decent HP, pseudo range and detection. You may disagree with the role(s) she received or some aspect of her design, but if you claim she "really needs help" or that she "desperately needs it"...well, that's false. I for one say she might need to have Enrage dropped and replaced.
Going to start posting here and if people concur with my picks/reasoning I'll move it up to the OP, as with everyone else's posts. First upgrade line is crying, desperately, for restructuring. How about: Aggressive Pin Down (Used to have it, I personally consider this + Detection and Precision her core, always envisioned her finding sneaky deep elf would-be fugitives and never failing to capture them.) Punish (See Flavor Text. At the very least this or Aggressive should replace enrage - this isn't a unit designed to survive if she's getting hit.) and instead of second upgrade line being all detection it could instead be: Detection 1 Pace (I have a thread about this in GD, hope it gets a look) Detection 3 Alternatively she makes a really really good pick for a ranged unit. It's always seemed like she was intended as one but for some reason was released melee (The art/sprite - even the melee animation looks like she's humping you with her bow...). I'm thinking 4-5, and in that case simply dropping arrow shot from base in favor of pin down. ---------------------------------------- Damage is ridiculously low. Should probably be 2-4. Would opt to move bleed to the second ability line, what it's currently competing against will never see it picked. All the Pet abilities seem a bit too costly given summoned status + lowered stats, but that's a separate discussion. I do think it may be worthwhile to consider losing the pet altogether (I was personally never a fan, knew this would eventually happen). Pet really holding back Bloodguard. Not sure about Blood Dispersal @ 12 nora since it's a conditional weaker Heal Mass but heal Mass 3 is 10. ---------------------------------------- is Classless For Void shield to work should probably be a bit tankier(First line could include Aerial Supremacy) or have life siphon (in Second line/base) as previously designed. Not sure how Punish fits, also one of the advent units for both Relocate: Blood ball, and feint but lost both. Second Upgrade line could be significantly better. Solidify and Remove Charge don't work well as upgrade choices against anything really, I'm pretty sure they're only there to keep the cost low since Void Touch is so expensive. Void Touch at 15 nora is questionable since she was made melee and lost feint. Would making it 6 turns and temporary justify a hefty decrease? Confuse costs 6 nora, for comparison. She's not necessarily bad in her current form, but really lacks definition. I personally feel she or someone else should get relocate: blood ball back. She brought advent to the ability, and now it's gone from the faction, for some reason the vast majority of the bleed runes are now only FW (They even gained 2 of ours). ---------------------------------------- Needs a bit more hp, 45 is less than many ranged units it will be facing especially with that paltry defense. 48 is a great norm for the Boks. CA: Ranged is entirely up to your opponent to trigger and can be used against you so its cost seems a bit higher than it should be. I would see it swapped for 1 rank of dodge and arrow throw on base which would bear the same cost but synergise with Command: Dodge on Enforcer. Also, even with everything I don't get the cost. Especially when the latest algorithm was released, most units around her cost went down in cost but she went up (as well as bloodguard - but that was a separate reason - pets- I don't get it). ---------------------------------------- Change name (amirite?) Psychotic Bok or Bok Warmonger <-- leaning towards this one. Lose Tormented for Fury on base Upgrade Line 1 Enrage 2 Aerial Supremacy Charge 3 Upgrade Line 2 Antagonize Rampage Strike ----------------------------------------
This is more of a split rune, but when it comes to stuff desperately in need of help, I'd say Rip Demon Alpha qualifies.
Awesome, thanks for the dissent (I know this sounds sarcastic, but it isn't). People's picks will naturally tend to be biased and any reasonable posts pointing this out are encouraged. I agree she doesn't 'desparately' needs help, but I'd see Pin Down returned, and can you argue she's not extremely bland and the first upgrade line might as well not exist(The second is just one thing anyway)? She 'has damage' isn't really much of an argument when you're talking about UD. I don't see myself using this iteration competitively(but everyone knows I run non-meta stuff and win), but again I'm biased and have gotten her buffed 2 times before revamp so I appreciate the post.
Well, I do enjoy beaters a great deal, so when it comes to the fun factor, she's not that bad for me. I can however agree that she is a bit bland (you could of course argue many post-revamp champions are), especially in the upgrade department. I think Arrowshot alleviates that somewhat, but I would also like her to receive Pin Down. However, I myself am biased when it comes to abilities like that . EDIT: Also, saying "she has plenty of damage" IS an argument because runes aren't only balanced in faction, they're also balanced against everything else. The argument was however only directed toward the balance aspect. It cannot adress fun factor. If all the runes of a faction are greatly focused on melee damage, that can easily take away from the variety and fun factor if not done right.
I don't think Warden needs to be touched at all. She's fantastic in my opinion, especially considering how bad our range is at the moment. I wouldn't mind seeing a slight Arbiter hp increase, but I'd much rather see a few changes in Bloodguard and Voidraker. I think Bloodguard is entirely too costly from what you get from her at the moment. I run her in a few of my bg's and I often find myself hesitating to deploy her. Voidraker isn't terribly bad, but there are so many better options for significantly less nora. I agree that her second ability line is incredibly poor and could use some work. I think Sheoul Magus should be discussed too. I miss the little guy.
Not gonna lie...im a huge fan of the bloodguard pet , knockback on ranged really opens up potential to making plays the bloodguard after first revamp nerf was fine tbh... cheap enough to support....but a little squishy for 1 range Ive accepted if you bring ranged suggestions to the devs about UD , they'll get ignored. So 2-4 bloodguard will get ignored 1-2 back tho?
I'll repost my bloodguard changes. Obviously it doesn't keep the knockback potential that @Agirgis1 suggested (which is a mechanic that would be great for UD to have) and it doesn't reflect the comprehensive rebalancing of boks/bleed bgs that @Legato suggested. Also, it has 3 new abilities, 2 of which will be fun to introduce for other factions. Pet: Screaming Imp ==> Pet: Imp Strangler w/o upgrades Bloodguard Range ==> 2-4 or 3-4 Upgrade Path 1: Blood Dispersal, New Ability: BloodGuard [Champion gains +1 damage/+1 defense for each bloodball within 4 spaces up to a maximum of +3/+3], New Ability: Slaver [Champion gains +2 damage for 1 turn each time it gives another champion Drive]. Upgrade Path 2: New Ability: Life Linked [Each time this champion or this champion's pet takes damage, before applying defense, that damage is split 50/50 rounding down and then applied to both the pet and this champion], Sustain: Bleed, Drive Bleed on base instead of Blood Dispersa
Yea I would really like a rework on the boks you mentioned, they used to be really good even if they were expensive, I cant play them now they simply suck.
This is a LOT of new abilities for one champ. They would need to be put on other champs at the same time, then.
That's an accurate observation. None of the abilities should be unique to Bloodguard, obviously, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be added to the game or that they should be introduced to units at the same time. In fact, there's an argument that new abilities should be introduced to only a few units/factions at the same time to test their overall effect on balance or interactions within a faction. Any thoughts on the overall power/balance of the abilities? That's an area where (quite frankly) I don't have enough experience to comment meaningfully.
Well, Blood Guard would certainly add some spice to the Bleed theme. Sustain: Bleed might help splashability, but only if nobody takes Drive for some reason. The rune also needs more damage to get real use out of Dispersal, but the upgrade conflicts with the Bleed-themed damage boost... I like the idea for the Slaver ability. It would be pretty neat on Skeezick Herder, if it replaced Drive on upgrades (with Drive added to base, of course) to give him something solid to do with his 3-5 range. Desert Walker would still need to lose 6+ nora though.
I posted this in Badgerale's PCR thread, but if we're focusing on (near) Shoebox runes, I'll throw it in the pot. I can add more if my style of changes is well-received. I focused on non-Bok since I have no doubt Legato will poke anyone around with a stick until they are more reasonable. Deep Elf Fire Dancer - [9 DMG | 6 SPD | 1-3 RNG | 0 DEF | 42HP] Path 1 = Damage Shield: Fire 3 | Fire Aura 3 | Flamestrike 2 Path 2 = Antagonize | Arcane Dance | Blind Base = Attack: Fire | Deflect: Fire | Fascinate | Resistance: Fire 2 or 3 (Default upgrades = Fire Aura 3 + Arcane Dance) Bump her up to 9 DMG/6 SPD and reorganize her upgrades while fleshing them out. Flamestrike 2 provides an occasional +1 RNG to her attack as a way of "lashing" out while Antagonize is an interesting alternative to Blind. Deep Elf Temptress - [10 DMG | 5 SPD | 3-4 RNG | 0 DEF | 40HP] Path 1 = Distract | Grand Entrance | Impenetrable Path 2 = Confuse | Fear 2 | Restraining Aura Base = Attack: Magical | Charm 3 | Punish (Default upgrades = Distract + Confuse) She may also need 6 SPD, but bumping her to 3-4 RNG might make her slower speed easier to deal with. I avoided the natural options of Abash/Fascinate because it would cause overlap with Deep Elf Fire Dancer and/or Succubus. Nefari Soul Torch - [8 DMG | 6 SPD | 2-4 RNG | 0 DEF | 40HP] Path 1 = Flame Nova 3 (Inhibits!) | Incinerate 1 | Set Ablaze Path 2 = Fire Eater | Fire Volatility | Immunity: Fire Base = Attack: Fire | Fester (Searing Touch?) | Torch (Default upgrades = Set Ablaze + Immunity: Fire) Torch is a painful sandbag in its current form. It needs to be reverted to the previous version that deals Fire damage instead of Life Loss with a slight cost decrease (1-3N). This change makes Fire Acolyte too strong to include as an upgrade, but will increase her viability due to its affect on other champs with Fire Acolyte. I'd like to see Fester changed to Searing Touch, but that's not as important. Shadow Hunter - [8 DMG | 7 SPD | 1 RNG | 0 DEF | 44HP] Path 1 = Escape | Shadowstrike | Stealth Path 2 = Bounty Hunter | Dispel | Mark Base = Attack: Physical | Domain: Shadows | Flight | Mischief | Shadowspawn (Default upgrades = Shadowstrike + Mark) I've always had trouble including this fellah in my BGs as he's overly expensive thanks to Bounty Hunter. Pick Shadowspawn and he's prioritized once revealed because he can't re-stealth (meaning don't bother with Domain: Shadows). Picking Escape/Stealth reveal where he entered play increasing the likelihood they'll deploy Detection nearby because they don't have to guess. To that end, put Domain: Shadows/Shadowspawn on base and give his DMG/HP a tap. His stealth path now ensures he has a method of stealthing post-shadowspawn. Tempo would be too much with these changes (double AP gen) so replace it with Mark. Choosing Bounty Hunter will probably make him more expensive than he is now, but he'll at least have a better chance of utilizing it before he dies.
Loving some of the enthusiasm. Not really sure Antagonize would work on Dancer as she's really squishy, but it's actually one of my favorite abilities, and in UD, maybe it doesn't have to. Could maybe consider swapping Bounty Hunter for Hunter Protectorate on Shadow Hunter, I also think Shadow Shift is a fitting ability. I've proposed Searing Touch to Torch many a time, but right now I think Searing Touch is waaay overpriced. The bloodguard proposal is silly, I've seen that around and have purposely ignored it. I get that he's fond of it to repost it, but in general try to stray from new abilities guys.The imp strangler is random, and we could just as easily make the screaming imp summon melee. Great Feedback guys I'm going to go through everything and want to hear more of things people really like, will add to OP. P.S. I'm really fond to Warden, there's a small history of her being hard to obtain for me when I first started, I do see what people mean when they say she's not terrible(I agree, that wasn't the point) but I still can't help feeling that her upgrade lines might as well not exist/could be made significantly better/inestimably more interesting with minor change/also weird not to have Pin Down. I actually thought Pin Down + access to Punish + Precision (would counter NKD) would be something more people responded well to, especially since it fit but this is nothing if not something I want to be community driven so nothing that doesn't have at least 3-4 people supporting it will be moved to the OP.
