Hi all, recently I try to get a good Lonx BG running. In general I feel that Lonx are not far away from being a good theme but there are some minor adjustments needed. 1) The Chief The main offender right is the Lonx Chief. Do you remember how Lonx became a "full" theme after the Chief was released? I still think that he was a good champ and not overpowered outside of Lonx decks but strong inside of his theme. (He was barely played outside of Lonx decks) Right now the center of Lonx decks is lacking. Deploying him does not fell like the "now it's rolling" experience of the past. He is expensive (which is ok for such a deck defining champ) but dont bring a lot of the table outside from having high range and alt damage. While I think that his main stats are ok (speed, HP, def, damage etc.) his updates are horrible. Main offender here is Momentum in 3 versions. 1 Version would be more than enough. Here are some changes I want to discuss with you: Reduce Momentum to 1 Upgrade. This would free 2 update slots for more synergetic ones. Move Camaradery to upgrade path 1 Include Relocate: Ally to upgrade path 2 Include Relocate: Foe to upgrade path 1 If you want to give him a real edge for Lonx Decks give him Aid Def on base (could be to strong in combination with Vindicative but in the past this was not a big offender. At least I can't remember people complaining about it) His upgrades would look like this. Momentum, Camaradery, Relocate: Foe Vindicative, Relocate: Ally, (Aid Def) If he gets to expensive drop damage by 1 point and HP by 5 points. This would still give him 60 HP FF with banner. What do you think? I will include some more proposals about other champs later on.
I wouldn't focus on the Chief. I would rather tune up others lonx here and there to make them usable as a whole.
I was with almost the same idea, but right now, mix vinc+aid defense is too op, i was thinking to put camaradire on the 1 upgrade path and let us use it with aid/vinc + camaradire would make it ok, i probabably would run with aid def, since +2 or 3 def is really good, if you want to give them multiattack, take it from the tundra whisper
Actually I think chief with vindictive is a solid ranged unit, I got more issue with the lack of alt. dmg sources and all the damn rend upgrade options!
All lonx need is their old chieftain back. A few tweaks to the current lonx maybe something other than rend 1-3 As an upgrade path. Maybe some logistics of some sort.
Pre-revamp lonx had the ability to claw back into a game where you were losing ground due to rush and certain maps (this is how I played lonx anyway. I have seen more aggressive builds). Vindictive + Aid defence was the enabler there. Unfortunately, being a legendary and a theme enabler before the revamp made lonx a "have chiefs or gtfo' theme. Some of the anti-rush sentiment remains but in reality its only a shadow of what it once was. I would love to get back to where lonx were but move some of it away from chieftain. They are not easy to get and new players deserve to bask in the wonder that are lonx. Imo chieftain can stand to lose camaraderie. It only benefits you on your second deploy after chief and I hate abilities that reward you for doing very little (yes i'm, looking at you NKD). Three flavors of momentum is incredibly dull. If you are running aid defence it is situational. Three lonx upgrades on the same path....lol wut? So he can either be used in a lonx bg.... or a lonx bg. Chieftain needs to get out more and meet some new people. Would like to see him get some goodstuff upgrades so he can be used outside theme. Variety is the spice of life. As for lonx in general- Would like to see luminary get logistic heal back (for a slight nora discount ofc). Also splash some more logistics around and actually give lonx an identity. Outside of channeler opponents have little to fear of a lonx snowball mid to late game which I think should be lonx's defining trait.
I dont lonx need their old chieftain back, I think that champ is fine. I rather see some more ranged support units, range 3-5, some soften maybe, that they change some rend upgrades. Lonx got great melee beaters, that are all fighting for the same slot, spot and role.
I don't agree. The Chief in its current form is overcosted. 3 versions of Momentum is one of the main offender. Relocate: Ally is missed badly. Other problems Lonx decks always had: Almost no range protection Almost no healing Almost no crowd control - This is especially bad because real tanks are missing too. In general Lonx are pretty much in the face but now Relocate: Ally is missing which means you don`t have unpredictable ways of getting your powerchamps in place. Throatrend missing evade makes it even worse. --> You have power on the board but it is pretty easy for your opponent to find out what you are going to do the next round. A lot of melee beaters have almost the same roll (Throatrend, Channeler, Bounty Hunter, Ambusher, Shredder, Gnark, Hunt Leader). Some of them have Init or are semi stealth but in general they are all beater and apart from a lot of HP not tanky. This would be one of the most important things to develop Lonx as a theme. Define the beaters and give them roles. This could be done via other more interesting upgrade options. Shredder would be a good candidate for a tank. There are much better beater out there. Snowguard was a cool idea for a Lonx defining unit but he is not very good (compare him to the Savage Shieldman lolololol) and could use better updates and some general tweaking...
Yeah, Chieftain state saddens me. 3 ranks of Momentum is crap, and having Improve: Range on base is bad too. He needs Aid: Defense on base, swapped with Improve: Range.
I drop him once I can proc of vindictive and that makes him a real strong ranged unit. I like him as he is. I run momentum 1, to drop his cost. I agree on having it as upgrades are annoying and stupid. I think heal on luminate is good enough, ST is low on healing. Crowd control - sure they are weak there, but they deal massive damage and u cant have it all. I personally love to go deep, drop contaniment unit and just force my opponent to destroy it. I also gain position doing so. If u want tanky Lonx go with recruiter or soul channeler, both got bulwark: lonx. U also forget that both bounty hunter and hunter gets a hunter ability. 30% dmg reduction is great.
They had a tank before the revamp in Lonx Defender (well potentially all lonx were tanks). Lost domain snow though which reduced his tankiness and versatility. Would be nice if he got it back. Gets my vote for lonx tank buff. The algorithm failed bounty hunter hard. Bounty hunter isn't so great even with power attack on such low base damage. Feels overcosted for his cumalative cost. Also lost combat awareness which imo is a counter they need. Would rather have protective back on throatrend and lose enrage. Or perhaps lose fury so you have the option of enrage or protective. Before the revamp you could have both which made him one angry kitteh no matter what. (I could be biased here. Used to run hideouts with lonx ) Snowgaurd with shroud perhaps? Lonx are not a phalanx (can you imagine an organised line of kittehs?). I don't know about chieftain being able to run vindictive and aid defence again pede. Is 'the plan' to nerf existing OP themes down or raise lagging themes up? If the latter then im in full agreement with your idea. Chiefs are legs though and I hate the low accessabilty of a theme enabler. Neither channeler or recruiter are tanks. Channeler is a snowballer and recruiter isn't really built for full theme lonx. Ive always associated health and def stacking with lonx, not healing. Luminary used to have stall for CC and there is no way anyone is running it over commander ,but no big loss. As daem said, not lonx's thing and themes shouldn't have all the answers. Reveal race on striker is always going to limit design space on this theme. But on the other hand I would never want to lose it as it provides a unique experience, which is why I fell deeply for lonx to begin with.
Hey monkey your suggestions are TOO attached to what the game used to be. You need to take all this as it were a new beta game. Did you test the game a bit with lonxs to consider the new enviroment?
The Bounty Hunter even without aid defense was a good tank, mainly because hunter, 2 defense(+1 on snow) and combat awrness, now we dont have a tank for real, but tusk got a good tank position, and not just meat. About the thread, make the Chiefan just close to the old Chiefan would be huge OP right now. Just take off Momentum 3 and put Camaradire there And how run it, i think it is obvious run Momentum 2, on a theme with 2 autoinclude beast tammer(thats why i dont think relocate is really necessary) give 2 ap at the deploy to a beast tammer make Momentum 2 too good on this theme.
I wouldn't comment on anything unless I have played it. Nothing I suggested was an overtly OP zealot buff suggestion. (ok snowgaurd with shroud was lame). Has nothing to do with living in the past. Owls did not overhaul lonx like they did the other ST themes. Essentially the core of what lonx had is still there . Still got the health and def stacking and still have reveal race. I even stated I was wary of chief being able to have vindictive and aid defence back despite it being the culprit for Lonx feeling underwhelming atm. Lonx were never an OP theme before the revamp (they certainly were a good one) and I never want that to change. "Lonx are great, nothing to see here...move along move along' is not the topic of this thread. Also your contribution to the topic has been minimal to the point I doubt you have played lonx since the revamp at all. This is what I dislike the most- -Snowgaurd with Lonx gaurdian is a death sentence in a lot of matchups. Now that we don't have a combat awareness clumping is not healthy. This guy wont see play. Bodygaurd would be a great ability if he lost tough. -Throatrends enrage ability is a no-brainer choice over fury and fearless. Couple that with 3 flavors of rend and his upgrades are dull. Getting protective back would spruce him up a bit. Could use him for melee hate or suprise ambush. Still a great champ but having enrage as his only viable upgrade fully puts control in your opponents hands. -Typically it will be three turns before bounty hunter will reach the fight and do anything at which time his cost is 80 nora. Needs to get a hit off before hunter procs on top of that. Either needs a damage tweak or a nora discount. Draw him as your only deploy first turn is horrifying and GG. No reason to include him over ambusher. -I ran Defender before the revamp and after. He is supposed to guard your font. That is his role. He isn't very good at it anymore. (I admit zealotry here. Few considered him runnable before but I thought he was great.) -The upgrades on chieftain are a joke. Camaraderie just shouldn't exist on a 6 range champ. Reward for little risk should just die. Momentum is not why you run Chieftain. Total waste of an upgrade path. -There is no variety in deploy order. Nothing encourages you to mix it up depending on what you face. Channeler will always be deployed early before anything if you can. Striker will always be deployed if you don't draw channeler so you can draw. As others have said. Lonx beaters have no variety and are essentially the same Where I would like Lonx to be at- Logistics - I think theming lonx around it would be flavorful and unique. Unless the owls decide to revamp lonx the theme is still based around mid to late and logistics would really tie it together. Having log. heals on Luminary felt right. Lonx didnt need it but it was a nice bonus if you kept him alive. Opponents will often message me during a game when channeler is deployed. "omg i hate that guy!" He is an example of a perfect snowball champ. You don't get OP stats just handed to you. Encourages deploying. In a nutshell I would like to see more abilities that favor deploys over the typical derp ST spells and relics to make Lonx stand out.
I personally think Bounty hunter is still good, not my first champ to drop, but when you need that extra damage and threat so is it great. I run logistik: flanking for +1 speed and +5 damage, since I got alot of melee beaters I will trigger flanking all the time. So 20+ damage in range 1-2(3) is a threat. I dont run lonx hunt leader atm, since I noticed I run very few rangers and luminate got command: lonx which is a really good ability and its heal is great. I miss soften or illuminate on it.
Scarebears summary is very accurate and I agree in almost all points. Please also notice that no one demanded a OP Chief. Aid def and Vindicative is a strong combination and I didn't asked for it as a must have in the first place. But there are 2 things worth mentioning. Before that combo can work 1 of your champs needs to die. You "pay" indirectly fur that synergie. Another thing: No one ever complained about that combo pre revamp! This means a lot in a community like Pox... No one said OPOPOPOPOP NERFNERFNERF. This is a good indicator regarding combos beeing over the top or not. Of course Chief should not be able to offer it all. Aid def with Vindicatice and Relocate and Camaradery is not the way to go but being able to choose between these options would be a good thing to have. Aid + Vindicative or Camaradery + Relocate would make the chief much more interesting. Lonx beater need a rework. They needed that rework before the revamp and they still need it after the revamp for making the Lonx theme round. Right now there is zero need to deploy something other than Channeler (because he is very very good in Lonx decks), Striker (range 1 makes him the best beater after Channeler you could deploy earlygame), Pouncer (for Font harassing) and Luminary (for extra HP and def). That simply does not feel right...
@Scarebear True, I didn't test them because it hurt me too much the pre-revamp state of them. That's why I feel alarming when people claim changes with that point of view. Although your indepth review is very interestings and @Mausini 's upgrade suggestion for Chief could also help the devs to adress the theme in a less boring way than monks and yetis were dealed with. PS: I'm testing them right now.
Yeah the state of ST is sad atm for yetis and monks. Nobody likes NKD, not even ST players. All factions have super fun themes that were gutted by the revamp. Hopefully discussions like this thread can help the greens fix them where they are failing.
