After talking with @TheBulwark in game, I think it would help to clarify why I think Meat is lost compared to the days of its inception. The particular debate arose around Lich Magistrate. Magistrate is a wonderful rune that provides Meat a new angle to handle opposing swarms, and a new source of real champions and health. It does not, however, fill the gap blasted open with the absence of flat Harvest and to a lesser extent Creeper's Dead Eater: malleable returns on the death of an allied champion. The math at the heart of both Meat's inspiration and its success was stunningly simple. Death Harvester provides 7 nora back on a champion's death. If a champion costs 70 nora, that's a 10% refund. But, if a champion only costs 35 nora, that's a 20% refund. If that champion dies twice, the refund rate doubles. If it can die more than twice vis Broken Bones, returns could easily break 80 or 100%. The key point is that 7 nora becomes proportionally larger the cheaper the champion's base cost. The large reductions in cost meant that a champion that was nothing more than a bag of stats suddenly became a bag of stats with round-trip cost ratios that surpassed anything else in the game. The low-cost requirement was the defining characteristic of the entire BG: everything was built around inexpensive champions. It was necessary to run numerous units so that the sum of the champions' costs remained the same (otherwise, the FW player would rapidly run out of deploys, and hence sources of efficiency); old, supposedly shoe-box champions filled the ranks because of their low cost; the BG had to play for late game to make the most out of the core mechanic; all the champion sources had to be real to generate nora; in order to play for time, champions needed to have staying power - be "meaty." All of this colluded for the name it still holds. (As an aside, this is the chief example of my frustration with themes in Pox. In this case, a single, simple mechanic - flat nora return on death - could create an complete, aesthetically unified, powerful BG. Meat wasn't really Death Harvester, Meat wasn't really attrition, Meat wasn't really Unholy Tomb; Meat was flat nora back on death. Themes now have to have myriad mechanics, synergies, flavors, interactions, and tools, often tied to some race or class. I find them clumsy and frustrating. Meat is a testament to the power of simple, clean mechanics to evolve into an entire idea through the concerted efforts of a community of interested people. This is why I am constantly pushing for flat nora mechanics, this is why I am constantly talking about the Bird, this is why I say I don't care if the bonus changes but deep down wish for even just a meager 4 nora back on death: that mechanic is Meat.) That outline should give some indication of how this pertains to Magistrate. Obviously, Magistrate doesn't give flat nora back. But wait, it does provide real champions on death, and those real champions drop nora globes, and it's a combat-viable, self-healing machine. Wonderful! Not so. Well, yes wonderful, but not so in the vein of Meat, in the aesthetic and precise mechanical terms above. This provides a benefit on opposing death. What was integral to Meat as a BG was its self-referential benefit, its own predetermined capacity to control its payoffs, its power in design rather than execution; Meat was essentially non-interactive. That was itself a source of strength, but that's a topic too lengthy for direct address here. Magistrate does not allow that. Not only does the player have no control over how many champions the opponent opts to deploy, they are also already at war over those champions' deaths. With Harvester - well, any return on your own champions' deaths, rather than your opponent's - this is not the case. Instead of an amplification of the importance of a dynamic already at play, there is a denigration of the harm suffered in loss. In a perfect game, where a player loses no champions, Death Harvester is useless. In a perfect game, where a player loses no champions, Magistrate would likely be a powerhouse. To play Magistrate is to double down on the innate conflict of Pox: destroying the opponent. To play Harvester is to hedge against that conflict. The runes functional in fundamentally opposite ways. Original Meat - the idea of meat - depends upon a return on the deaths of its own champions. For this reason, it is impossible for Lich Magistrate to patch that now-gaping flaw. More than that: Meat has not actually existed since Ronin nerfed Creeper. The BGs posted here after that point lack that essential ingredient, because that ingredient no longer exists. They are hollow mirrors of Meat (however apt the description for other reasons), that may provide for a similar style to Meat, a kindred aesthetic approach, but by their nature are not, and cannot be, Meat.
Love your posts and agreed with it fully.The lack of efficiency and the fact that getting rushed or simply dominated by healing and range is why i stopped playing meat.
If the bonus gives a flat return would that reinvigorate meat? ...or would it require adjustments of the less expensive champs?
Every champ aside from Afflicted got hammered with the revamp. It's real hard to say what champs would need a change, if any. Really, old Death Harvester was the most simple mechanic that would make Meat tick: small, flat nora back on death. And I think in this case, it should be small, especially if it is the bonus. If Meat had access to a cheap (free to about 60 nora) source of, say, 4~6 nora back on a real champ death, that and minor buffs to Broken Bones and Decayed Mercenary - or the creation of parity champs - would do plenty for Meat. In retrospect I think original Meat was way OP, and don't want to see it be that way again. If the faction bonus was 4/2 back on any real champ death and some source of CDR, or perhaps CDR shifted to Boon as talked about earlier, that would be all I think Meat needs to be at least tier 1.5 right now. Maybe tier 1.
I know that % is currently being considered specifically due to the meat effect. In order for a good flat nora return bonus adjustments would be needed for a number of runes. Haunt/Wake the dead are probably on the docket with the announcement on summon-izing non-deployed units. Magistrate is another good example as well as broken bones and to a lesser extent revive oriented units. Graveyard as well. The above list are probably the hindrances to that type of bonus but I could see these adjusted to make it at least possible. Magistrate's units to summon as well as haunt/wake (which have slowly been inching to that with the loss of globes). Adjusting Split to summons. Graveyard could probably stay the same or change to summon and be more like greenhouse in buffing skellies. The rider and on death champs I don't see a problem with since they would get the lions share of the % bonus anyway. The question also becomes, if the FW bonus does become a mix of flat nora back and CD reduction what happens to death harvest?
I have no idea what happens to Harvester. I would say that the terror about certain designs is what thrashed Meat in the first place. It functions off of a mechanic that the Devs apparently find fundamentally undesirable. This dovetails wonderfully into one of my problems with Pox design, but that's for somewhere else. Yes, I think Haunt and Wake should get cleaned up. Those runes have been consistent concerns because they produce real champions. Magistrate as well, for similar reasons to Zombie Plague: generating high quantities of real champions is a problem. Maybe - maybe - Broken Bones would need a change. I think not. He is such trash right now that even a flat return would only make him a questionable include. 37 nora for 4 speed, 27 HP? That is both an abyssal stat line and a finite source of real units. With previous values, he was too good, but in his wrecked form, there is nothing broken about him, just underpowered. I really don't know what happens to Harvester. If making Meat actually exist is on the docket now, reverting in-part the Harvester change would be a more conservative way to do that compared to changing the faction bonus. If there is heavy impetus to change the bonus, flat nora is obviously fine in my book, but it does leave the Bird out in the cold except for Detection.
I really do wish that they would do something, but the change of the faction bonus and boom seems like it may need to come first if it is a serious consideration. Those massive changes will have large consequences on meat and after, changes needed to make it a competitive deck may be very different
Anybody got a spare Doom? Edit: finally got it on pox and am now broke. I´ll blame kala if it doesnt work out How would you substitute that spell? thx
Here's what I'm playing at the moment: https://poxbase.com/deck/C4Tc74cuck-c4mc93C9fc75Cw4c8lckyc39c76C9hs3dsps4NsgsnsUs72rTr2PrZr1r8 I call it Speed Meat, and the goal is to be hyper aggressive early game and then use the momentum and backloaded setups to transition into a stable mid-game. Once FW hits mid-game safe and sound, everything gets better. Technically, I guess, real Meat isn't dead, because you can run Soul Collector, which this BG does. Still not sure how I feel about it, but he's alright. Bit sandbagged. Blood Fiend is awesome, considering bumping that guy up to a 2x for draws, but don't think it's worth the slots later on. Similar feelings about the Mason, which I'd still prescribe as a 1x. The spell set is a best-of collection designed to gimp strong champs in every way possible, from sniping out Angels and auto-healers to cliffing on the right map to reaching kills on low life units all the way up to the big combo: Essence Drain -> Death Pact -> Soulbane will kill any non-shielded, non-impenetrable unit under 60 HP within 5 spaces for 90 nora and part of the 'Caster's health. It's a high cost, but being able to trade in on nora like that is fantastic. Reanimate is a bit of a wild-card right now, and is mainly there to combo with Deathcaster, or get a Soul Collector back on the cheap. With Deathcaster, getting 2 triggers of Soulsift 2 on an 87 nora unit is a big deal. Still probably doesn't pull its weight. Might be better as a second Gravewatcher, who can tag Coragh, leaves a globe, refunds nora, and self-combos well, besides being a font capper. The relics are standard. Grim Well suits the high-aggro game-plan and it mucks ranged units something fierce. Skull of Decay is a reflex include, and even with the dis-synergy with Decay, is still alright. Backup font contester.
It would be my concern as well. Fortunately, Deathcaster picks up some of the slack there, and the damage-allocation problems are often solved with aggressive melee lines and the butcher's kit of a spell set. I still intend to fiddle with the Fairies, but it isn't as pressing as it might be.
I am curious why I often see Polluted Martyr run with Soulsift 2 instead of 1. I rarely see one killed before its time runs out so you are essentially paying 5 nora to get 13 back in 4 rounds. It may just be personal preference but I would rather have 5 nora now then 13 later. Its basically a net of 2 nora per round.
For me, it's a matter of long-term efficiency. Martyr is already a front loaded monster, so I'm willing to include a more macro-focused component in SS2. I know there's been a lot of discussion about the temporal value of nora, but in my book and especially in the book of Meat, time-blind value judgments and razor-thin margins of efficiency are what get the job done.
Thinking more about it, running an SS1 Martyr might help because it cuts the CD by 20% - from 5 to 4. Something to think about, at least.
Against my better judgement I built one of those. It's pretty fun but lolmirror. Anyway I'm wondering about upgrades on a couple of champs. Obvious choice would be to go cheap as possible but I might be losing on some "power". Moga : breath rank is a tossup but I'm mainly concerned about Curse vs Entangle here. Entangle is obviously more powerful but the cd is rather annoying. Spamming Curse before engaging seems more practical. Soldier : I saw a lot of 3/3 but the range of Hex rarely matters. I assume it's better to keep it <64 but I never played FW much so who knows. Yeti : Mainly Tormented vs Enrage. Guess Enrage wins here. Shank : Noticed some Stealth+Shift but am I insane to run Shadowspawn? I think it's more AP efficient to run the 1st build but spawn does have some merits in a multi font scenario. Corpse : Yeah I know Locust Swarm is the best ability ever and it would be crazy to pass it for death nova but again, being clueless about FW what cost should I aim for here? Also there's like eleventy billion good spells in FW, what should I not pass up in any circumstances?
Yeah, FQ the mirror if you can. Otherwise, say good by to the remaining days of the week, it will be a long match. Entangle/Curse feels like a preference choice. After the buff, it depends on what else you're running. The more important it is to lock down the opponent, the better Entangle will be. So, if you are running 2x Martyr, 2x Shank, etc -- champs that benefit from a less mobile opponent -- go that route. Also, it does twice as much damage. Otherwise, Curse works well. For Soldier, I think 3/2 is the way to go. Once the recost on auras hits, 3/3 becomes a much better option, but right now, 62 for aura 2 is better than 66 for aura 3. The range on Hex is part of it, the other part is the bonus damage. Considering how often he uses the ability, 2 nora is worth that 2 damage in my book. If it doesn't suit your gameplan, though, certainly chop it down. Enrage is a certain winner. The guy doesn't chill at low life that often, and +5 damage on a champ that meaty is a wonder. There's probably a case for a Shadowspawn build, as Shank rarely gets a chance to re-stealth. I think the extra mobility from Shadowshift is huge, though: you can jump across small Detection areas, cross chasms, and avoid impeding or even damaging terrain. If you are running just 1 Shank, I think the improved usability from Shift is a winner, but going 1/1 on builds makes a lot of sense. They cycle fast. Once more, aura 2 is a wonder. Considering how rarely the Afflicted Corpse gets to attack, doubling his passive damage for 2 nora is a steal, but adding another 50% isn't worth a 10% increase in cost. Maybe you could run 1 with Death Nova -- maybe. Locust Swarm is a crazy good ability. Spells and support runes are a wild place. Plenty of people will tell you different things, but here are a couple I include when I can: Essence Drain. Was a wonder, is a wonder, will be a wonder. Particularly effective if running a Reaper's Blade, still strong without. Doom. Some people swear by 2, but I think 1 is plenty. Doom is a problem solver, especially for a BG playing the long game with weak champions. Mobilization. A classic, and with good reason. Not as strong when each point of AP is worth less, but that is somewhat compensated by having more champions out. Sometimes, you just need 4 AP. Grim Well. It's not a spell, but this rune is gold. Powerful spot disruption on the cheap, Grim Well opens up a lot of strong plays. There are a couple other runes I consider when building a BG, but they aren't auto. Domination. It's cheesy as hell. Getting through the early game is all about that. It's there, it's situationally strong, and if you have the space it can do work. There's a stigma around using this rune for diving, but it's here, and isn't even up for a change yet, so it's fair game. Soulbane. An unassuming spell, Soulbane gives Meat much-needed reach. It bypasses all immunities and resistances, even cutting through the IS bonus, and potentially brings a global debuff with it. Works well in conjunction with Essence Drain if you really need something dead.
