The Norns, weavers of destiny living in the well from which the world tree sprouts carved runes into it's great roots to bend the fates. Odin wanted this power/knowledge so he hung himself from the world tree in order to look down into the depths and prove himself worthy. Odin did a lot of things for knowledge. the christian god Jawohl is claimed to be OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT and OMNIPOTENT? so he knows all that will happen, is there, and is all powerfull? this makes no logical sense seeing the things happening in the judeo-christian myths.
Which has been exactly my point all along. It's PEOPLE that indoctrinate, not public school, and you can indoctrinate just as well (and IMO, even better) by isolating kids in a homeschooled environment and limiting their exposure to other people and ideas (this doesn't mean all homeschooling parents do this on purpose, but it's certainly easier from an objective standpoint).
Which is fascinating, isn't it? And really demonstrates how dogmatic people are about their faith. Unlike scientific inquiry/theory, which tends to converge in the long run after challenges are validated or disproven.
your point is only valid if people are actually exposed to multiple ideas and points of view. the multiple people part is just meaningless, lots of people with similar opinions does nothing to encourage multiple points of view, quite the opposite really, it's an environment that often squelches free thought, grades them on it, and tells them it's wrong. more to this point churches, cults, political rallies, hate groups, etc all have lots of people none of them support broader points of view and while two schools in two different countries may be very different in how they teach and how they operate, the same is not true within schools in the same country or even different classes within 1 school. while I doubt you will concede the prior point that more people does not mean an increased exposure to ideas, I will continue on anyway. eliminating the people from the equation what is left? I'll admit social skills can be improved, but growing up we moved nearly every year of my life, I was in a dozen schools and I can tell you with 100% confidence kids are ass holes, I made tons of friends and dealt with more then my fair share of bullies, but at the end of the day stepping out of line gets you bullied, that's the nature of it, "the nail that sticks out gets hammered in" is an expression for a reason and it's ever present in the school system.. nothing to conclude from that point as I admit social skills are important and the key to getting along in life is fitting in even if it's at the expense of free expression, and thought. so moving past people and social skills it comes down to the lessons, homogenized checkbox style lessons that are the same in every school I've ever been too, complicated issues are often lead to a single point of view which is decided by someone that has nothing to do with the specific class, teachers are fired for going off script, and anyone who sticks their neck out and dares to entertain an opposing point of view risks there career if they have anything less then tenure. great for math and classical science but utter Bane Shift for philosophy, history, social politics, political science, etc as to be quite frank a single agreed upon point of view is not how those things should be taught, and yet they are. while american schools are likely the best option most people have available to them in that country, IMO many people(a minority but not a small number regardless) are more then capable of educating their kids better then the system does. do I think hill billy joe with a grade 2 education should be home schooling his kids, nope now ask me if I think Steven Weinberg isn't more capable of educating his kids then the public sector?
That's LITERALLY my whole point: Indoctrination is about isolation from different points of view, not "public education." Unlike members of your church or family, a random sample of the public is MORE likely, not less, to have a more diverse set of viewpoints.
[QUOTE="Sokolov, post: 406710] Unlike members of your church or family, a random sample of the public is MORE likely, not less, to have a more diverse set of viewpoints.[/QUOTE] Yes but only if it's random, schools aren't random.
It's more random than your homeschool family by virtue of the latter having much fewer opportunities, and that's enough for the purposes of this discussion.
It is true, the teachers at a school may be doing the indoctrination, but it is the people, not the school.
Impossible to generalize. Some teachers go off script and risk getting fired but most teach as they are told and thus have no say in what they teach. You can't say the teachers are responsible when they are forced to teach lessons on a national/state level
your schools are wack, where I come from schools taught math, history, biology, physcs etc. we always thew sand at the kids from another school, there was no reason. we just didn't like 'em.
so the brainwashing is: If good white boy christian has 3 apples and evil atheist black Ja'rome steals 2 how long is the jail sentence if this is his third strike?
Meanwhile, in AZ: So while I am constantly being told that public education is leftist indoctrination, we have things like Southern States rewriting the civil war and pretending that slavery was not an issue, states mandating teaching Creationism and things like "Freedom Schools" in AZ getting increasingly more funding. What are these, you ask? Well, it's basically Koch-funded right wing propaganda schools, focusing solely on Austrian economics and anarcho-capitalist ideas.
nope I said schools are ok at math and other finite subjects, so they wouldn't be bad at teaching anything like math. anything subjective like history or philosophy they are terrible at, as they teach one perspective as the correct one. for example they may teach about the bay of pigs and leave out everything the us did wrong in that matter. they may teach about the Cuban missile crisis and leave out the details where the us started the whole thing as my class did. I'm really shocked you want to make this about religion as well, as my point has nothing to do with religion in this case, only a loose reference to religious groups as they were a simple example of a large group of people sharing a similar point of view limiting scope, same could of been said about the KKK or the BLM or anything really, large groups of people that decide to congregate together always homogonize into a single point of view. soko's point above is a simple example of it happening with the freedom schools but in reverse to the commonly discussed occurence, just more fuel for my point of view that schools are a tool for indoctrination. is indoctrination nececarily bad though? that's a different topic entirely
I think the point is that like people kill people and guns are just a tool, people indoctrinate people and schools (public or otherwise) are just a tool. The problem is you have to actually PROVE indoctrination, and whenever this topic comes up I feel like most people who are talking about have no idea what is actually taught in public schools vs private schools, churches or homeschooling. Or even the internet, which silos people like we haven't ever seen before into subgroups. Factually, my point is that at least with public schools you aren't stuck with a particular demographic or belief group, and are more likely to be exposed to more perspectives by virtue of there being more potential for diversity in the school population. Meanwhile, for example, Mormons in public high school loses multiple classes per week and get taught extra "religion" courses, which, of course, are simply going to be LDS teachings only. THAT's real indoctrination, but everyone focuses on some weird nebulous idea of public schools indoctrinating. Ultimately, what people define as "indoctrinating" seems largely to be about a specific thing or two that aren't being taught, rather than actually being able to show that the curriculum or ideas are actually closed to different viewpoints.
As a purely academic endeavor what would qualify as proof of indoctrination? if the burden of proof falls on the accuser in this case, let's quantify the variables and lay down the criteria to reach this proof. is a single example of indoctrination in a single school acceptable? what about 10? 100? does the indoctrination need to be in the curriculum itself? what if 100 schools can be proven to indoctrinate the youth in any fashion but it cannot be proven in the curriculum? how many examples per school is required before we can safely say that single school indoctrinates it's youth? if 80% of schools indoctrinate youth is that sufficient or does it need to be the full 100%? how about 50%? is 25% suitable to acknowledge an issue at least on a level that can be discussed as something that is not a myth? what would be suitable as an example? indoctrination by definition is - "the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically" To me that would mean teaching any lesson without critically reviewing all reasonable opposing points of view(again within reason) and allowing them to come to their own conclusions, as how can someone be critical of something without understanding multiple points of view. but maybe you have your own interpretation of what would be required as a sufficient example? where do we fall on non lesson based indoctrination attempts? does an example about social issue such as the number of genders for example qualify as indoctrination if students and teachers a like are punished for wrong think on the matter?
