Nora costs of Phylactery Bound and Lich-born

Anyone else agree that we habe a nora cost issue here? From my point of view Phyl Bound needs to cost much less when compared to Lich-born.

Lich-born 35 Nora

This unit cannot be the target of spells. When this unit is destroyed, it reanimates as a Lich Knight champion, loses Lich-born, gains +1 DEF, +4 DMG, Flight, Scorn,Life Siphon, Immunity: Magical, and gains Attack: Magical as its basic attack.

You get
Flight: 6 nora
Scorn: -5 nora
Life Siphon: 10 nora
Immune Magic: 8 nora
Attack Magic: ?
+1 def: 2 nora
+4 damage: 8 nora? (could only find +3 damage for 6 nora in PB)
I do not count warding in but it would be only -1 nora anyway

21 nora of stats and skills = reanimate does cost 14 nora and is unpreventable (more or less)

Phylactery Bound 30 Nora

When this unit is deployed from the runedock, a Phylactery relic is spawned adjacent to it. If a Phylactery is in play when this unit dies, the nearest Phylactery relic is destroyed and this unit is reanimated in its place.

The champ get zero skills. The relict can be destroyed and therefore needs to be deployed as far away in your deployment zone as possible = a even bigger tempo hit together with the 30 nora.

It is not like you see tons of Hoarforst Lichs and Eternal Lichs around. I don't feel that Lich-Born is overpowered but I feel that Phyl Bound needs a serious cost decrease.

Thats a minor change and we have 2 more runnable champs in Poxnora.

What do you think?

 

Also add here for compare a Brainless , that cost only 10 nora and has only Unequippable (-5 nora) as negative bonus.
So yes, i agree - Phylactery Bound is too overcosted...

 

I think Phylactery-bound is a really flavorful ability for Liches, and would love to see more of them get it if it ever becomes properly costed.

 

These spawn on death abilities seem really tricky, if you take the 30 nora off the Lich you get a pretty decent unit for 63 nora so having that guy spawn a second time for 30 nora really isn't a problem. I think the problem is the 93 nora price tag on a unit which isn't going to have 93 nora's worth of impact on the game.

I simply suggest that it be changed so you deploy the unit without the cost of Phylactery Bound and then pay the 30 nora when they are spawned a second time.

 

These issues are already in the Crate (@Sokolov ). For another great example, check out Skeletal Rider: an ability for 45 nora that produces a champion with a raw value of about 40. These things are fiendishly over-costed, and changes are in the works.

 

While I agree some costs need adjustment, you have to remember just one thing when talking about Rider abilities: the raw value of a champion being 40 doesnt necessarily mean the ability should be the same price. There are other factors involved, since the champ didnt have to spend any AP to get into battle, it saves from a font being grabbed by the opponent, etc. etc. etc.
In other words, 45 nora for an ability that allows you to deploy a champ worth 40 nora isnt exactly out of line.

 

Check the math, it's 36 nora, the champion has 2 abilities: Boon, and a basic attack. For how back-loaded is is, I think it's out of line. Additionally, that assumes that the costing formula is accurate to make those valuables playable for their respective champs. Decayed Mercenary may have that rune-dock price tag, but he's also butts. Raider is, I feel, almost unplayably bad. Right now, with him paying 29 nora for his stats, I'm inclined to think that has to do with how much Rider costs.

 

I get that, but my point stands, does it not?

 

Not really,since you pay for something now that you can only benefit from later.Thus it should be much cheaper then it is now.Its already on the sok list and on death effects will get cheaper duo to their backloaded nature.

 

So, huh, since Im paying for it early on it shouldnt have a realistic cost? This doesnt make sence, having a backloaded nature is not excuse for something being with a screwed cost.

 

Oh, I get the point you're making, and yeah, it's something to think about when costing the ability -- no doubt. I think that benefit is, however, marginal compared to the present state of the ability. Getting a unit upfront is worth less than the currently inflated cost.

For Phylactery Bound, there is no such benefit and the rebound effect is additionally tied to a fragile relic. Considering the Lich would be 43 nora without the ability, it seems overcosted.

 

I disagree with Sokolov on his view, then, but it deserves a different thread.
Carry on with the Phylactery discussion.

 

Clearly the first one is better. You have more control over it. The second one could be something you have control over but you need to be able find a way to trigger it (Sacrifice and Forced Reconstruction being common examples) and it is thus worse by comparison.

 

As far as an interaction between mechanics and expressed aesthetics, making back-loaded effects cheaper provides for the long term nature of a faction about death. The ability is more efficient in sum, but less immediately powerful.

 

No, this is not what Im saying at all @Sokolov , specially because the example is completely different when it comes to champions. It's pretty obvious the first one is better.
When we are talking about respawned real champions, you must take into consideration that he used 0 AP to get to the place where it is at - how much would you value that (20ap worth of movement, for example)?
Also, often a respawned champion can contest a font that otherwise would be grabbed by the oponent, and in his turn can attack, deploy relics, has spell presence, etc.
The only scenario in which that champion would be "worthless" is when the spawned champion is destroyed the same turn the real one dies, but even then the player has to spend AP, nora, etc., to kill it.
I dont think the "backloaded nature" of the ability is a good argument here.

 

There's also all the material involved in the Nora Inflation thread. Deploying a rider champ is paying now for something they may not get for a while. Considering how non-threatening many rider champs are, that could be quite a while.

 

Ok, I agree with your arguments, then.
But the only circumstance in which the effect "may not arrive" is with the Defile Corpse ability, and that isnt very spread out though the game.