I really like this, or at least what we have been able to see so far, that is, just a general picture. Not sure about this being very noob friendly but, anyway if someone don't want to make the effort to understand champ customization is not going to like the rest of the game neither. So wth! I also agree with class being important, and the way it is going to make themes more coherent (hopefully) because themes are imho one of those things you should be prioritizing.
There are other sweet spots as well though. The 63/64 mentioned for FS for example. There are also speed sweet spots (why 5 speed is just bad). I'm sure this has been taken into account though.
Gedden will having a bg with many of exos and legendaries be considered bad after the revamp? Because I have a blood/vamp bg that I spent alot of time and money making and I still want to be able to play it after the revamp because its the only bg I have that is somewhat good.
I can pretty safely say that the answer is no. Maybe the powerlevel will shift towards the average a bit, but it certainly won't go down beyond the average.
It looks like the revamp will allow IS to play the same game as the rest of the factions for a change. In a world where stats and abilities all have a standardized cost you get balance. The discussion becomes about the hidden value of synergy between abilities not the champ on his own. You say the engineer is OP? How if all invig 2 champs have the same cost added to them for the ability? You cant really talk about the engineer on his own, you have to discuss the cost of the ability that makes him OP. If the cost of the ability is not correct it should get changed for every champ that has the ability. This is the promise of balance that SOE promised us but lied about implementing. No more will people be able to pull crap like this or that champ is OP while still leaving OP crap all over the place. If abilities are over or under costed those abilities will be changed for all champs. A much better and reasonable system. Suck it meta decks. Is this the end of the shoe box for champs? Real champ balance means a variety of effective options.
@Dresnar20365988 The problem on the engineer seems to be that not having damage is making the base cost of the rune too low, if you check with other previews you'll notice a sharp increase in efficiency as the DMG goes down, The problem seems to be that the same costing formula used for champions that do need the DMG to work is being used with passive champions.
Not to hijack the thread... but can I just say that between Sokolov, Senshu, et al...I have NEVER seen a group of devs this active in the forum and, not only that, but willing to take the time to explain WHY they made the choices they made! I mean seriously, who DOES that? Nobody. Certainly not any big-name game companies. Cheers to you guys. If nothing else Im excited to see the revamp just because IMO it will be an improvement no matter how small, cus I can see the thought and reasoning put into it!
I don't think so. Invig on someone like Zeven is largely minimal. He is a massive tank and damage dealer. Using him to support rather than hit something with his 19 damage and long range is not getting the most out of him. However, invig on a cheap support champ is a totally different picture, and that champ is focused on getting the most out of invig for the least cost. If even had invig, and the Silverclan was seen as OP, it would absolutely be fine to claim the Silverclan should have specific changes as opposed to the ability - the supplimatary value gained through a combination of cost and ability synergy can be the issue rather than a simple cost of an ability, and in such a situation changing the champ with the synergy is best and it doesn't alter other perfectly fine champions.
Strings your talking about something that doesn't exist. Adding invig to bastion isn't a realistic comparison. Part of the revamp is removing abilities from champs. Were not getting all these swiss army champs that we currently have. It would be much better to compare the Silverclan to another support champ. Is it worth points on a Lonx beast tamer to have attack damage and an attack? Of course it is. Is the Lonx Tamer primarily support. Sure it is. Can it also and will attack on occasion? Sure it will. Should the tamer cost more with an attack than a Silverclan without an attack? Of course it should. Tweeking points is fine and all. I'm not saying the algorithm is the be all end all of balance. It is, however, a very very important place to start and even more importantly not a number that should be strayed to far from.
That's really not his point, Dresnar. He's just saying that setting a definite price for an ability might not be the best way to go, since there are a lot of variables to consider when you are designing the champ - Sok explained this to you on that other thread. Ideally, yes, abilities will be priced the same, but don't be surprised if there are variations based on a champ per champ basis.
It really is the best way to go. Especially if you are limiting the abilities per champ. Its how you end power creep and get most of the runes out of the shoe box. Its how you keep most champs relative. My example above with the Silverclan engineer compared to a Lonx Tamer is a much better example of how this works than the example Strings gave.
OK, last post since I really dont have time to argue with you, since you are 50% of the time either trolling or have no idea what you are talking about. Of course in your example from Beast Tamer and Silverclan they are both priced the same, since they are support units and Invigorate is a support ability. We do not know how champs will end up, though. Let's assume you have a ranged damage dealer who happens to have Drive as well, just cause. In this case, Drive on this unit is probably costed differently then it is on a straight support unit. This is just for you to get the picture, don't know if it happening or not. Edit: take a loot at Markoths post on that Q and A thread, I think he explained it better than me.
Huh, I think is wrong in the sense invigorate will cost the same for both champions in that case. However, both champions would have different base costs because the devs can freely "tax" certain champions in order to balance the synergy between the base stats and the abilities, and to some degree, the faction. Quick example: lets say we have 3 champions with 12 dmg base, 6 spd and 50hp, with 64n as starting price. Now, increasing by 1 the maximum range would normally increase the cost by 4n. Lets say we take one of the three champions, and we increase its range from melee, to 1-2. This hypothetical bare bones champions would increase its cost to 68n. If we go further, to lets say 2-4, in theory it would cost 76n for the range increase. However, given how much more powerful is deep wounds on a ranged champion, its reasonable to assume the devs can freely tax this champion with another 3n to made up for this synergy, hence it would cost 79n. If we take another of the two melee deep wounds champions from the example, and put it on UD (+4dmg faction bonus for being melee), is reasonable to charge 2n to the base cost (66n), and even I would consider race demon to require another tax, if races doesn't have a cost like any other ability. A change on the cost of deep wounds would equally affect all these 3 champions ("too cheap, OP, nerf it nao!"), so if it goes from 4n to 6n, suddenly the 2-4 range champion would go up to 81n, the UD one would cost 68n-70n and the bare bones would cost 66n. However, if the devs identify a specific champion to be the problem (yer old "FW/UD are broken" thread), then rather than nerfing all of them, they can just tax the champion for the perceived problem, which is preferably to going free style with the abilities themselves.
I think we are all saying the same thing - except Dresnar. Maybe I didnt make myself clear enough, though.
value vs price is all you guys are talking about. Price can be X but depending on what champ has it the value can be drastically different. Which is where base cost/taxing for role/race/faction/etc comes in.
price has always been arbitrary and remains arbitrary. since pox has started we have seen the devs attempt to do a consistent price system repeatedly, but then on the following nerf/buff cycle they start adjusting the nora cost of champs +2, -4 + 3 at which point the costing system is pointless.
If they are going to make having bloods bg's with several legendaries in them less optimal then I hope they at least change the rarity of the champions. I wanna be able to use the theme effectively without every champ in the theme being super expensive nora wise. The theme would feel almost pointless if you can't use it effectively since most blood bg champs are exo and above.
