As a returning player, I just want to express that I love the direction that has been outlined by the new developers. Unfortunately the threads about complexity creep etc. are not retrievable from the SOE forums, but there were some great posts there. But as far as I can tell the developers are on a great track concerning that issue. What I am still concerned about is the economic side. While I understand that a) this is a digital CCG and b) the developers need to be able to feed themselves from their income; please do not repeat the mistake of creating a two class society of players again. What I mean by that is, that there are currently runes that are barely obtainable without cash (legendaries/limited editions), which means that new players (as well as those on a tight/no budget) will not be able to compete with those who own these runes. The relevant thing is, that any rune must be obtainable via a "reasonable" amount of time and effort. Since the trading market is dead/dominated by trade sharks, there needs to be an alternative. The crafting system could very well be a way (à la Hearthstone). How grindy this process needs to be will be hard to balance. But as you surely know, whether this game will live or die depends on a healthy player base. This is meant as constructive criticism an I hope it will be received as such. I am really looking forward to the overhaul/rework Best wishes T PS: If anyone cares: I did spend cash on the game (wish I would have spend it on desert owls not SOE thought). Also I am well aware that you can be mostly competitive with budget BGs - the edge you gain from top runes currently (legendaries, limited, top exotics) is undeniable. edit: spelling and PS
I've never said there wont be tweeking. There will be. Here is what you guys aren't getting. Each champ now is limited by the number of abilities it can have. Before there would have to be more emphasis on champ costing because of the multitude of abilities they had. Limiting champs to 5 abilities will focus champs into roles. You won't see a champ with invig and combo attack devastate. Roles will be more defined. Just look at the previews for example. You guys keep talking about a different game. The old game. In the new game standardization can work. 5 abilities, different costs for upgrades are the key to making it work. Tweeks will still occur but they wont be to the degree to which they occur now. Power creep can't exist in a standardized costing formula. Does this mean most of the champs we use and are forced to use in the meta of today we won't be using after the revamp? Yes, that is what it means. Lets take the huntress. She gets 5 abilities including her attack. I'm not going to bother with her upgrade options. 1. Attack physical 2. Pet Boar 3. lay trap 4. reinforce 5. hunter 3 - 5 can be changed which also changes the cost of the rune. You will no longer have crap like inspire tacked on to champs because some ******** dev thinks its cool. If inspire is an upgrade option then I will pay more or less for it in exchange for another ability. Its a very good system. It will completely remove power creep from the game. Hot knife through butter.
What were those cost changes adjusted to? The meta game? Also the tweeks you mention are acceptable. After the revamp ALL champs will be costed by the same formula. ALL champs will be relevant. Before we'd have a release that would blow away existing runes. I never saw any type of standardized system adhered to. Power creep, and the community typically agrees, has been going on release after release. There is no standardized system that would allow power creep!! Its freeking math people! Will some things have to be tweeked? Of course. The difference this time is that the things that need to be tweeked won't only be newly released runes. God Damm Barb Commander might have to much synergy using the new system! BATTLE RAGER might have to much internal synergy. This is the difference between this revamp and all the others.
Here is a question. What is the ABSOLUTE base cost of a champion? Meaning: if there was a rune whose stats were all zero and had 0 abilities, what would his cost be? If the answer is close to zero, then therein lies the problem with the Engineer and other "passive" type champions. The absolute base cost for a champ needs to cost a certain amount of nora, and abilities and stats build off of that base cost. If that base cost is too low, you run in to the opposite problem that we have now. Instead of units with absurd amounts of abilities being costed too low, we would have units with very few abilities and low stats being absurdly cheap. I'm sure they have an absolute base right now, but it may be too low. They may need to raise that base cost, and lower the cost of abilities and stats to create a smaller gap in champion costs.
One of the major points about the rework is, that having legendary runes will not be required to stay competitive.
While I would love that - I could not find a mention of that in any of the 5 original preview posts (I did not read all of the threads though).
http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/q-and-a-with-gedden-22-05-14.3317/ Gedden talks about changing the situation of legendary runes being autoinclude here. Used to be like this before you started playing. Most Legendaries were either good (as in good, but could be substituted), or trash. Around when angels and dragons for every race was when this started changing.
Yep. If legendary runes are subjected to the same standardized costing formula as the rest of the runes legendary runes will no longer be as dominant.
well, in the past we had systems in play charge would be 2 nora, charge 2 would be 4 etc, x stats = x nora, but after all that was calculated their was the X variable applied. the X variable was essentially power creep in numerical form, it was arbitrary, sokolov used to have charts of how champs were costed and at the bottom of these charts was a cost adjustment value that was arbitrary. when players cried for a nerf, or a rune needed to be buffed, this value was essentially what they'd change, at which point I ask what is the point of the system if you just just change it around willy nilly anyway, and if you try to tell me that in the new system this won't occur I believe you are fooling yourself. even in the very first build of poxnora, when the champs had custom stat upgrades and set ability costs for the upgrade the X nora cost adjustment was still in play. albeit atm i'm a bit out of date, I'm far behind the time and don't have a clear picture of what they have planned sadly, but I do know point build systems don't work, they are nice guide lines, but that's all they are.
Sigh. Your probably taking this a bit to literal. Do you understand the premise of the system that is being implemented? Geddens own words say that the current meta is completely destroyed in the new system. Do you disagree with that? Was he lying to us? Do you believe there has been no power creep in the past? Do you believe that if you revamp a game and include in that revamp the entire body of runes form day 1 of the games existence to present day that runes that have been left behind will still not see play? Do you believe that changing most champs to 5 abilities won't drasticly alter and refine the power of each and every champ in the game? I don't think you and Pede understand the extreme makeover that is coming to Pox. Once the spells, relics, equips are brought in line it will be a very different game.
There you go, you just said it yourself. While we are at it, though, I completely agree that its going to be a whole new meta and all, I just think that you are fooling yourself by thinking every champ will be playable. There will be better champs and worse champs, and the worst ones will be left out and the best ones be played. Simple. Also, don't attach yourself too much on the number "5" of abilities on base - some champs will have less, and some will have more.
The reason for tweeking a rune is the undetermined value of the synergy of the rune relative to itself and its theme. Its the X factor that Soko was accounting for. It does have a value, that doesn't make the system arbitrary. Tweeking will be necessary to account for those X factors. Lets just call it "S factor" for undetermined value of the synergy of a rune.
Yeah. The goal was 5 per but there are exceptions. I'd hate to see Argriol get "punished" for psy attack and magic attack but then only receive 3 more abilities. Of course some champs will perform better. Once all the tweeking is done there will be champs sent back to the shoe box, some that have never been to the shoe box sent there and some that will never come out of it. The thing I'm interested in though is the overall change in the approach to rune design. In another thread Soko says he wasn't allowed to change earlier released runes in his revamps. How long has it been since we've seen an effort made to make all runes viable by a dev team? Some runes will fall short, others will excel. Tweeks will come. Things will settle. During this process we will have a unique opportunity to argue about rune balance in a new and more definitive way. Factionalism will not be as easy to get away with once the raw numbers are exposed.
