poxnora needs to take that next step... seriously - it's time to put on your BIGBOY PANTS

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by LoserSlick, May 13, 2017.

  1. LoserSlick

    LoserSlick Devotee of the Blood Owl

    i think recent changes (recent insofar as what's changed since i left) to rewards, runes and campaign are both huge steps in the right direction - as a consequence, however, it feels like the number of players grinding it out in campaign has impacted the number of available players in the battlegrounds.

    the occasional bi-monthly 'win 20 ranked matches' (or some such) reward seems like a very underwhelming effort to address the fact.

    i hope we can agree the primary goal here should focus on expanding the player base

    *NOTE: i'm going to use my own terminology within a sort of self-contained context so as not to confuse anyone*

    couple ideas/suggestions:

    i want to very seriously urge you towards the idea of employing more rank systems than just singles and doubles. currently, there are waaay too many idol runes - that is an enormous amount of sort of 'untapped economic potential' with respect to content resources and creating player value. there needs to be more than just singles and doubles - i don't see why you wouldn't expand the avenue for more players to compete. and poxnora now has a massive collection of runes to actually be able to do it.

    e.g.

    - a common league: (the term "league" not to be confused with our current rank hierarchy)- i.e. bgs exclusively comprised of common runes)

    - a 'working class' league (lol for lack of a better/more clever title): bgs comprised of only commons, uncommons, and rares

    - a trick-deck league: bgs comprised of runes from a minimum of 3 separate factions

    - subfaction league: bgs comprised exclusively of subfaction runes. at this point i feel the rune base is more or less large enough to be able to do this. each faction has at least 2 to 3 subfactions already (dragon/skywing, draksar, skeezick in SL for example). here, the other fledgling subfactions would simply wait until maturity before being incorporated. as well, this would provide a great means for player feedback on which subfactions players would like to see expanded before others

    - (etcetera)

    all should be incorporated into a single rank hierarchy like the current one that has just singles and doubles - but separate as well. that is to say, you should provide players with a means to filter (ideally, multiple tabs within the current rank window) between each individual ranked league in addition to the universal one (or the "ultimate" one). if players with more invested in the game take issue with something like a 'common league' interfering with their rank, you can simply make the appropriate agreed upon gain adjustment to the character of each respective league within the scope of the universal ("ultimate") one. each with their own respective leaderboard as well - again, also serving to make that feeling of progress, competition, and satisfaction more palpable to ALL players in at least some regard and in spite of their skill, experience, or size of their rune collection.

    this would be a colossal improvement to ALL player experience and would solve many problems:

    A) it would create more fluidity between campaign and ranked

    - put yourself in the shoes of a new player grinding it out in campaign. they get uber excited at having acquired their first two or three exo/leg runes and can't wait to try them out in the battlegrounds - only to quickly get their faces smashed in (alt accounts compound this issue, but there might be an easy solution to that problem i'll mention later). demoralized, they either head back to campaign - or worse, they feel they are simply in way over their heads and leave the game entirely. in all candor, poxnora's learning curve is WAY too high for you to allow that to happen. things like a common league would allow both new and "new-ish" players to actually EXPERIENCE and enjoy the game at every level of progression. it would give players a sense of that delicate combination of progress and fulfillment (a phenomenon we call "fun") and would simultaneously obscure the perception of poxnora's overbearing learning curve quite wonderfully if it didn't dissolve it completely.

    B) it would improve ranked play for ALL players

    - take TinyDragon, for example (to go completely to the other end the extreme) - imagine he (or she) is sitting in battlegrounds and there are no other players of his (or her) skill level. is it going to be as fun for him to be queued up with some low-level new player as it would to queue up with someone who will actually challenge them? lol it certainly won't be fun for that low-level player. but in so many ways they are kind of in the same boat. so not only would multiple leagues (again, talking about rank systems here) increase the number available players to actually queue with in the first place, but players would additionally enjoy the freedom of being able to queue with the benefit of substantially more preference and control (insofar as how many players from each skill demographic in the battlegrounds at that time and how long they are willing to wait for a game). tinydragon might even find the idea of a common-rune or subfaction league fun or intriguing and queue one up regardless.

    really, the new leagues might not even necessarily actually 'need' to be incorporated into a single universal one (although i don't see why this couldn't be done). the point is to create more player versus player interaction - something that i think is being undervalued and is at least certainly lacking. adding this to the game would accomplish that. and much more.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    k, real quick.... of the alt-account problem:

    first (if you'll pardon me): guys. seriously. quit being ********. making a NICHE game unfun for people in order to get a small leg up is beyond a "**** move". realize this isn't world of warcraft and we don't have millions of active players. this isn't the kind of game where it's some kind of harmless temporary loophole that you're so clever to have discovered. in a niche game like this, you're simply being selfish - and an *******. moreover, you're forcing an understaffed group of people to use up time and resources that could otherwise be spent on maintaining/improving the game you like playing so much.

    (sorry - this message board has censors right?) k getting off my soap box...

    why don't we just put some kind of experience requirement on new accounts to curb this behavior? maybe i'm oversimplifying it, but couldn't we just require x-number of games or what have you to have been played before being able to receive league rewards? it seems to me there'd be an easy midway point between not overly constraining new players and also making the time it would take to exploit said loophole to no longer be cost-beneficial. in theory, actual legitimate new players would probably never even be aware it was there in the first place, right?

    i don't read through this forum as much as some of you so perhaps someone's already made this point.

    that said, even if nothing was done, implementing the suggested changes to ranked pvp would as well make the alt-account issue far less pronounced

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    my memory is a little fuzzy on this next topic so please try and bear with me

    after the adoption of the aforementioned changes to pvp--with a re-invigorated active pvp playerbase--i'd then reintroduce tournaments. again, i think the first goal should be to bolster pvp interaction so it'd be important for this to be implemented after and not before so as not to marginalize those gains before they even occur. (in which case you'd be right back in the same boat)

    A) the tourneys i remember from around when i left were abysmal.

    i remember feeling that the way they functioned and how its reward system worked were things that had been poorly communicated to the casual player. i remember having to constantly whisper other players to figure out how it worked. at a minimum, i think this information should have been simplified and integrated into the web client user interface.

    B) you devs have enough on your plates already - simply let the players run them.

    - create an additional shard/forge system designed exclusively for LE's or some other special type of thing (we can refer to them as "crystals" and "master forge" for now). let players themselves put up their own rune(s) and/or gold rewards for these tourneys and let the value of these rune/gold rewards correlate to the number of crystals the tourney host receives to use in the master forge.

    - similar to the new ranked categories i previously mentioned, let players customize these tournaments as well however they see fit. maybe enable them to customize them even further (e.g. bgs must consist of only champions... bgs cannot have any spells... no relics or equipment... etc.).

    C) integrate this tourney system into the battlegrounds (so current active players aren't scattered across multiple tabs) and encourage participation in them through the daily/bi-monthly reward system in the launchpad

    - this provides further incentive for players to veer away from campaign (and the grind) and encourages more pvp interaction (and fun) insofar as even if they don't think they will win the tourney they will still get the marginal reward from the launchpad dailys.

    - to prevent any sort of 'insider' abuse of tourneys - be it through alt-accounts or simply two "elite player" buddies conspiring together with pre-tested bgs - create a flag system that incorporates some sort of retractable type-field along the tourney window (or box i guess) for players to both flag and/or make character-limited posts about the tourney. the flag system could be simple 1-5 hot/cold colors and whatever hue averages from them would be the color of the tourneys title window and/or text. i guess the theory here would be that the flags, posts, experience, word of mouth, and finally the extent of the tourneys proposed constraints - this would altogether curb any abuses. lol or maybe elite-level players even end up finding these red-flag tourneys enticing and target them specifically. trust-buster style

    i can send you some concept drawings if need be :D

    lol obviously i'm just spit-balling here and these are just ideas. but the point is that i think tourneys can be self-sufficient solely among the player base and there are hundreds of ways to do it

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    so that's my initial advice - take it or leave it

    once again, keep in mind tho that both of these suggestions are aimed at steering players away from grinding it out in campaign and focuses on pvp... or FUN, rather. that said, campaign still needs to be there - i wouldn't make any substantial changes to anything regarding the current craft/reward/campaign system.

    i also think you'd do well to consider the possibility that if players are too busy having fun, they might indeed be more inclined drop a couple bucks here and there in lieu of the campaign grind o_O

    just sayin

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    lol i'm sure even thinking about the amount of work involved here probably gives you indigestion... and then you'd have to promote the hell out of it! :D:D:D

    i have no idea what your business situation is like. have no idea what your plans are or what capital is available to you, human or otherwise.

    but i do know you guys are sitting on a gold mine. hope you guys realize that

    the amount of character content, atmosphere, development potential, and story (lol tho i've never actually read any of the games lore) in poxnora is like world of warcraft level. -well even bigger in many ways. yet half of that content is just sitting there collecting dust o_Oo_Oo_O

    THINK BIGGER

    HIRE MORE PEOPLE:mad::mad:
     
    Gnomes and xaznsoulx like this.
  2. LoserSlick

    LoserSlick Devotee of the Blood Owl

    /the end
     
  3. LoserSlick

    LoserSlick Devotee of the Blood Owl

    lol jesus crust that is some bad writing on my part

    proofreading is for losers

    (also it's saturday)
     
  4. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY Devotee of the Blood Owl

    That's bad writing because no 1 is going to read it. Too much useless information
     
  5. LoserSlick

    LoserSlick Devotee of the Blood Owl

    lol yea... perhaps a little overly descriptive there

    sorry man

    sometimes i overextend a bit... foreseeing and addressing problems before they've even been presented
     
  6. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Too much reading, I usually read everything but this was way too long. Maybe make a bullet list of things you think need addressed ?
     
  7. LoserSlick

    LoserSlick Devotee of the Blood Owl

    sorry guys - i know it's an uber long thread, but i was particularly interested in any feedback on the idea of expanding/improving the rank system.

    i guess the most simple bullet list of what i feel needs to be addressed would be:

    a) expand/improve ranked play
    b) increase the number of active players in the battlegrounds queue
    c) then go ahead and reintroduce tournaments

    expanding the ranked play is the first 'section'

    with hindsight, it might have been better to use multiple threads (also probably could have made a better title) but i think it would have actually been more difficult to do it that way
     
  8. LoserSlick

    LoserSlick Devotee of the Blood Owl

    as well, another benefit to making this change to ranked (or something relatively similar) is that it would re-establish the hierarchical scarcity with respect to rune rarity. it would curb most resentment from any players who would argue that recent changes have devalued their runes
     
  9. LoserSlick

    LoserSlick Devotee of the Blood Owl


    if you have time, make sure that you do read the entire 'first section' of the post because i did have this exact thing in mind when i grinded this thread out. the idea is somewhat of an overhaul, to put it mildly, which made it difficult to explain and that's why it's so long. hopefully, you will see what i'm trying to articulate after reading all of the first section. and if not, then i need to find a way to communicate it better

    but if you mean that it could be disastrous to partition an already less-than-ideal number of ranked players in the battlegrounds, realize that nothing would change with respect to the current rank hierarchy. that is what i was referring to with the 'ultimate' or 'universal' rank. it's the same concept as the whisper<trade<global chat. imagine the same tabs in the chat window but in the ranked window. you'd be able to filter through each tab/league to either queue a game in it or to simply observe your current rank in that league. and each league would impact the ultimate rank (your main rank) accordingly - i.e. the 'common league' would have the smallest gains/losses per win/loss in your ultimate rank... the blue collar league (on c/un/rare runes) gains/losses would be larger... etc...

    or even players who don't find any of those leagues to be particularly appealing, they can simply queue up normally as they do currently (in the ultimate rank/queue).

    so what is accomplished here are four things:

    1. it would drive more players away from campaign and into ranked play
    2. as a result, it would encourage players to spend more money and not feel bad about it
    3. it would draw more new players into the game
    4. it would provide more matching liquidity insofar as what league individual players would now have the option to queue depending on how long they are willing to wait for a game (e.g. if there are 10 players in the common league queue and only 2 players in the ultimate or "main" queue, a top tier player could just decide to pull out his common league bg and queue up in that league instead of waiting around all day). though, you have to also picture that the occurrence of such trade-offs would be less frequent than you'd otherwise assume as there'd be substantially more players in the battlegrounds to begin with. also there'd be significantly less unfair or 'un-fun' mismatches

    if that's not what you meant, however... then i just typed that all for nothing lol (yaaaaay)

    in any case, i appreciate the response and i look forward to hearing your thoughts.
     
  10. LoserSlick

    LoserSlick Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Wow. I was around back when lich and dwarven king ruled the land, so this must have been before that.

    Do you remember what any of the game modes were?
     
  11. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    King of the Hill, and Highlander were the special game modes. This was after DK and LK were starting to decline in value.
     
    SPiEkY likes this.
  12. LoserSlick

    LoserSlick Devotee of the Blood Owl

    ah i see. i think i actually remember the king of the hill one.

    so in response to MrBadGuy: i see your point but you have to realize that those were game 'modes' as opposed to what i'm proposing - and i don't think you can necessarily compare the one with the other as there would have been only a fraction of the current rune base at the time (whereas now they are all overflowing with runes). even if you were to consider bringing the modes back it'd be wildly impractical to expect devs to be able to balance thousands of runes between eachl of them simultaneously.

    unlike game modes, these would be leagues - and they would be hierarchical (this is important). but that is the whole point.

    perhaps i may have over-elaborated on the concept when i started delving into things like subfaction leagues. lets hit rewind for a sec. imagine just two added leagues (which is honestly where i'd start... because these two are essential for the idea to work): a) the common league (bgs only comprised of common runes) and b) the 'blue collar' league (only c/un/rare runes).

    it basically boils down to:

    1. content utility (which is grossly lacking atm)
    2. attracting and retaining new players
    3. increasing the number of available players in the battlegrounds queue
    4. diminishing the currently overbearing learning curve

    number 4 is crucial. expanding the player base is imperative, but also realize there would be absolutely zero compromise from ANY player to do it in this way (as i explained in the 1st and 10th post.

    you really have to put yourself in the shoes of a new player here to understand what the actual problem is before you can see the solution i'm trying to suggest:

    - right now, the first step is basically trying to discover which of the THOUSANDS of runes are actually competitive capable. to the least extent you do this with experience... and then you do it by looking at trade values in poxbox (which, not only are new players probably unaware of PB's existence in the first place, but there is no means i know of to filter on the trade screen - which makes it even harder)... and then, finally, you do an enormous amount of observing matches between skilled players (keep in mind you have to as well learn through experience who the actual 'skilled' players even are)

    - next, you have to - again - observe a ton of games to learn how the game is skillfully played.

    - then, ultimately, you have to actually acquire the runes.

    and that last item is exactly where you start to see that the current game design is fundamentally problematic. that is to say that the time which is to be spent grinding it out in campaign for said runes is simultaneously going to be time that is NOT being spent learning (let alone actually playing) how to play a very demanding and complex game - and the learning curve only compounds this problem.

    so not to come off as arrogant here but this is clearly a game for people with above-average intelligence. and if the sort of barrier-to-entry into that full 'actual' poxnora experience is too large (which i would argue it definitely is, currently) then intelligent gamers are simply going to INTELLIGENTLY decide that poxnora simply requires way too much time investment to make that trade-off. and it's especially upsetting because the vast majority of them will probably make that decision reluctantly (as poxnora truly is a great game).

    but this solution, in theory, would appeal to virtually ANY kind of new player.

    EDIT: oops. post got away from me bit and i forgot to reiterate a very important point: notice that a common, blue-collar, and main leagues are HIERARCHICAL with respect to rune rarity. sorry to repeat myself (lol i'm sure it wont be the last time) - i realize these are atypically loooong posts and i won't blame you are or anyone else for that.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
  13. LoserSlick

    LoserSlick Devotee of the Blood Owl

    really i think the devs hands might be sort of tied atm. i imagine they are probably both understaffed and overwhelmed at the vast content poxnora has created. but instead of asking how to maintain it, i think the question should be what to actually do with it because you'll have to maintain it either way. really, my entire contention here is that they need to start seeing it as an asset instead of a liability.

    the poxnora project has a finite amount of man power. and if they give in to the whole "power curve has become bland and repetitive" jive, then they are going to have to invest more resources either way due to the size of that content. [lol not to sound repetitive myself, but, once more, it is the progression in that power curve that is at issue here]. as far as i can tell, that's what the devs are currently aiming at - at least that is what it looks like when compared to the state of the game at the time that i left. but it's going to require more work either way. so in addition to all the benefits i've previously argued, it seems that the addition of a common and blue collar league would at least partition the problem--thus, simplifying it and making the objective(s) easier to quantify. honestly, over time i don't think there'd by any such feedback to contend with in the first place.
     
  14. LoserSlick

    LoserSlick Devotee of the Blood Owl

    so would you be on board with an added (integrated) common and blue collar league - as described - as a minimal jumping off point?
     
  15. LoserSlick

    LoserSlick Devotee of the Blood Owl

    saw another "problems" with poxnora thread... thought i'd bump this

    buncha stuff going on in the op, but the single most important SOLUTION/suggestion of this entire thread centers around UTILIZING THE ENTIRE (OTHERWISE IDOL/SHOEBOXED) RUNE POOL

    that is all
     
  16. PoxBot

    PoxBot Well-Known Member

    In my experience running tournaments, and from what I've observed playing this format over so many years at different stages of Pox's development, commons only is not more balanced or particularly fun compared to other formats. All it does is make it easier for people to compete since everything is so easy to acquire but a lot of runes that were mega OP in their time like Fishkisser or Crusader just sort of pooped all over the lesser commons. It also makes splits the best thing to play and allows for some mechanics to have fewer counters. I believe one of the winners in this format from back in 2011 was an IS/FS deck running 2x Marsh Song and Nora Mine/Deep Miner. It was a slow setup but some of the bulkier cheapos could stall long enough before it just steamrolled you. Resonance from KF's Jester was literally the only possible counter in that format since the only other noragen counter existed in the form of a rare cyclops back then.

    You say you want this, and it would give iPox a giant stiffy to see an announcement for this but all it would do is create degenerate tri-splits with combos devs never accounted for. If it has happened so many times before in ways that warranted rune bans and hotfixes just with splits, the possibilities are endless with trisplits.

    I didn't read all of your comments lad, but the reality is that game modes will not thrive in current Pox. It was hard just to get unranked games last time I checked and even when we had 500+ online players at the same time, it was still slow for alt game modes. Just look at 2v2 and witness how it goes for that. Granted, 1v1 modes would be presumably easier to get rolling than 2v2.

    This will never happen in any card game ever. You are correct in thinking changing the environment affects rune viability, but it cannot be done fully. The closest any Pox dev has gotten to something like that has been Sok going back and incorporating/revamping old cards into themes. Within the context of a theme, some otherwise goodstuff mix unviable runes become a top choice. That is to say, being ranked 10 in the tanks of your faction would mean you're super shoeboxed but the class/race keywords make you the only tank in some other niche and thus king of that theme subrole.
     
    Fentum likes this.
  17. bambino

    bambino I need me some PIE!

    wasn't there a capture the flag game mode also? boy everything's so fuzzy.:)
     
  18. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    There might have been, but I stuck to the regular modes usually.
     
  19. LoserSlick

    LoserSlick Devotee of the Blood Owl

    PoxBot

    i can go through your post piece-by-piece but it really might be easier for me to just put it in simpler terms - namely, by first describing the "actual problem"

    essentially, poxnora is structurally unsound; in concept and in volume it's unsustainable. period. after umpteen million expansions without any vision or realistic goals for the future, the learning curve has gotten so comically out of control that poxnora could give completely unrestricted access to its ENTIRE rune base and poxnora would STILL fall flat on its face.

    respectfully, i think you (and you certainly aren't alone) are simply too close to this game and therefore likewise are actually the most ill-suited to provide any rational/practical solutions that would make this game successful. catering to the most active and vested players is PRECISELY what distracted/misguided devs into what is now our current (lol and FINAL) situation.

    with very few exceptions, currently, playing this game competitively requires either A) an IQ level that borders on mild autism, or B) players that happen to be both hyper-infatuated with and/or have as well invested the last 5 to 10 years of their lives playing THIS specific game almost exclusively above the rest of the market... or C) both A) and C). it's just not tenable and it never has been--not only fundamentally, but marketing-wise and as a business model. the only reason half the players even stuck around for as long as they did was because they were duped into believing we had been communally moving the game through it's development with a final "finished product" in the foreseeable future. lol the emperor simply had no clothes man.

    so when i talk about you being "too close to the game" take a step back for a second... click on just one SINGLE faction and scroll through that fkn MASS of runes (lol and there are eight of them!). so in addition to everything else, the initial impression that poxnora is going to give new players when they see this in relation to the number of actual players is... *tumbleweeds*

    what we've had, really for as long as i can remember at this point, is an ever-increasing MASSIVE shoebox with a select few "secret" runes/decks that are competitive. this has as well been their flimsy business model for as long as i can remember (maybe even before sony?)... that is, expansion expansion expansion (buy these new runes, buy these new runes, but these new runes)... again, with no vision... no end goal... no "final product." lol just kicking the can down the road year after year after year.

    it is the same mark carried by every single failed business that ever existed: keeping their heads above water while praying on a punchers chance that their good/service takes off... "somehow" (lol usually magic).

    also realize that devs have done virtually everything conceivable to otherwise mitigate the effects of said problem (lol other than, of course, actually addressing it) - namely, by trying to create artificial value SPECIFICALLY aimed at new players and at the point of entry (what does that tell you?)

    ------------------------------------------------------

    so, with that being said

    do you understand you are arguing from the same ALREADY-failed pretense i was trying to address in the first place?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
  20. LoserSlick

    LoserSlick Devotee of the Blood Owl

    some of the disconnect we might be having here might stem from what it is we actually want

    i'm sure there are a handful of people that would be perfectly contented with poxnora being kept on life support as is (lol will probably get their wish)
     

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