Sapling DMG: 6 | SPD: 5 | RNG: 1 | DEF: 0 | HP: 24 Base Abilities | Attack: Physical (+2 nora), Opportunistic Assault (+8 nora) Upgrade Path I | Surge: Plant (+5 nora), Domain: Vegetation (+6 nora) Upgrade Path II | Hidden: Vegetation (+3 nora), Take Root (+2 nora) Nora Cost | 36-38 Nora Cost (Without Abilities) | 19 nora Broken Bones DMG: 7 | SPD: 5 | RNG: 1 | DEF: 1 | HP: 35 Base Abilities | Attack: Physical (+2 nora), Split (+8 nora) Upgrade Path I | Berserk Attack 1 (+0 nora), Rabid 1 (+3 nora), Flanking (+8 nora) Upgrade Path II | Faithless (-3 nora) Nora Cost | 27-35 Nora Cost (Without Abilities) | 20 nora Assuming these values are correct, why do you think Broken Bones is allowed to have +1 DMG, +1 DEF, and +11 HP for only 1 nora more (looking at the cost without abilities)? Is Broken Bones undercosted or is Sapling overcosted? I understand that Young Saplings are based off of real Saplings but would the game be broken if Sapling, deployed from the rune dock, were costed more closely to Broken Bones?
I'd argue that sapling's stats are poorer also because of the fact it's a treefolk and a plant and thus can splash into D'elim and Tree decks. One could argue that BB being a skeleton is similar, but last time I checked there are fewer ways to utilise skeletal sacrifice boosts in skeleton BGs in FW than there are champs and relics which can sacrifice treefolks and plants for boosts in KF. I also think sapling's nora cost factors FF KF bonus in.
The Nora cost doesn't factor in the bonus - it's done via a formula. I was going to mention the delim synergy, but didn't due to BB also being part of many similar DB/attrition bgs in FW - most of which have more ways to utilise skeletal sacrifice boosts than Delim. You have to be careful with both that you do not make them too efficient.
Well basically, sapling is a treefolk, and so therefore it got nerfed along with the rest of the theme and is now super bad. In all seriousness though, upgrade path 1 is too expensive. Both of those abilities increase it's cost by 13%, yet neither of them are ever any good because of his super low base hp.
Yeah as elves rule said. Saplings upgrade paths cost nora and a lot of it. While broken bones upgrade paths are praticully nothing
Yeah, it is clear that some of the upgrades are a little expensive on the Sapling for the bang you get out of it. The thing I wanted to point out is that, once you take all the abilities off the champ, BB pays 1 nora more than Sapling for its stats but BB gets +1 DMG, +1 DEF, and +11 HP. It seems like Sapling has some suboptimal upgrades but is also paying more for its base stats.
Do you think ability costs (or some of them anyway) should scale with the survivability of the unit? Like you guys are saying, opp. assault on a big tank is great, but on a 24 hp 0 DEF unit it's like flushing nora down the drain.
Saplings were toned down when the players with the torches came for the tree theme. It actually got Bind (not Assault) at first, but that was removed in the name of consolidation. As for why Sapling should be paying the same for so much less in base stats: I don't know. If it's paying the correct amount for those stats, then Broken Bones should have its price adjusted accordingly. If its not paying the correct amount for those stats, then Sapling should have its price adjusted accordingly.
I agree. Neither BB nor Sapling are hard to kill but I know I put a little more thought in killing a BB over a Sapling. If Sapling, deployed from the runedock, is purposefully overcosted, maybe that should end?
What would be a better and cheaper base ability than Opportunistic Assault which wouldn't be broken on a mass of Sapling?
Saplings with Ambush does sound kind of cool, but... 1) Ambush costs 2 more nora than Assault. 2) The summons don't have Hidden Vegetation So it would be another nerf to summoned Saplings for a small change in the way real ones get their free attack.
Since Saplings, even "free" ones from Summon Sapling, are among some of the weakest summons, what about a change? Sapling DMG: 7 | SPD: 5 | RNG: 1 | DEF: 0 | HP: 28 Base Abilities | Attack: Physical (+2 nora), Logistics: Take Root (+1 nora), Splintering (+2 nora) Upgrade Path 1 | Domain: Vegetation (+6 nora), Inspire (+2 nora), Latch On (+3 nora) Upgrade Path 2 | Hidden: Vegetation (+3 nora) This version allows the summoned saplings to regain access to Take Root but each Sapling must wait a number of rounds to be able to use Take Root. Logistics: Take Root is so cheap it isn't much of a sandbag in non-plant decks. Splintering, in addition, means that each Sapling, even summoned ones, eventually lose durability as they make attacks. The upgrades are sufficiently cheap and useful enough that Sapling might be deployed from the runedock. @Sokolov What would a Sapling like this cost assuming any nora modifiers, if any, were taken off? Edit: I know Take Root was taken off the summons because it was "too much." Since then Take Root's buffs have been nerfed and this proposition has Logistics: Take Root instead of Take Root. Read Sapling's flavor-text, eventually gaining Take Root is what Sapling is all about!
Im pretty sure sapling is the victim of some manual mods. also broken bones to some extent despite having more hp technically has less due to the fact that it gets halfed when ever it takes a hit (not a complaint split is amazing)
[QUOTE="Xirone, post: 334532, member: 56] Logistics: Take Root (+1 nora)[/QUOTE] Logistics: Take Root as a base ability for Saplings is a particularly awesome idea in terms of flavor and balance.
I feel like in Delim decks it probably wouldn't trigger but in plant decks it would, eventually. It makes sense, too, as Saplings should thrive with its friends near but nasty wizards burning trees is probably not a nurturing environment for Saplings.
