Self Identification - where does one draw the line?

Seems to be the hottest topic right now; who gets to use which bathroom. Someone self-identifies as a female, when they were born a man, should/should not be able to use the womens bathroom etc etc.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/meet-the-52-year-old-father-who-identifies-a-6-year-old-girl/

Where's the line? Is there one? No matter what someone dreams up, are we supposed to accept it and support it?

Here's my opinion: You can do whatever you want, but as soon as your self-identification presents a situation in which others could be harmed in any way, you've crossed the line.

 

For me, it's pretty simple. On new builds make uni-sex bathrooms, nobody loses.

Also, who get harmed if a man who identifies as a woman goes to a women's bathroom? It's all cubicles and I don't think there have been any instances of attacks or anything.

It's one of those issues that seems important, but in reality, where is the danger?

 

You're focusing on the first line, I'm saying thats where we are. But how far beyond that (unisex bathrooms or forcing others to comply with mix genders in single gender bathrooms) will we go?

The fella identifies as a 6 year old girl. Does he drive or work? Both of those would be illegal, wouldn't they?

Are we going to say that his self-identification is silly? If we do that, then why isn't all self-identification silly?

There-in lies my question, wheres the line?

 

Cool example. As we've come to learn and recognize the effects of second hand smoke we reduced the places one can smoke almost to the point of "you can smoke only around other smokers or where your smoke has very little chance of being encountered by a non smoker".

Maybe we'll have to go down this road as far as we did with smoking, and we'll need the concrete evidence similar to lung cancer in non smokers.

 

How do you think this man's children would respond? Is harm only physical?

 

this debate is silly and the way you try to compare it to age or tie perverts into it is creepy.

forcing people who self identify as female to live as a male or vice versa leads to higher suicide rates. allowing them to live as their identity helps their mental health.
someone who has altered their body to resemble their identity may be attacked more easily when they enter a toilet that is intended for a gender they no longer resemble.
someone who has the mental capacity of a 6 year old is generally not allowed to do things like drive.

it is that simple.

 

Self Identifying to me makes someone pretty close to insane.

Saying youre a cow when youre human is crazy, saying youre a woman when youre a man is crazy.

On a simple one like gender, XX XY problem solved, its real easy to find out what gender you are, its science.

Jenner says she is a woman, now ask his/her chromosomes.

Will coroner reports now have to list the self identifying persons gender as what they wanted ?

People can now what identify as a different race ? sure why not since chromosomes dont matter to gender anymore im sure skin color etc doesn't either.

Now in a scientific study that is studying women, can men who identify as women now take part in study ? and why not ? if you don't let them you are discriminating. (we found 10 out of 100 women now have balls!)

Will the self identifying persons feelings be hurt when they are told by scientists that they cant take part in a study on womens cancer because they are in fact a man ? those damn bigoted scientists must hate them now too.

I could go on and on with examples of how encouraging people to self identify is stupid and what problems its going to cause when that person living a fantasy is confronted with cold hard science.

 

Two points, is an albino African still African?
Are gender and sex the same thing? Does gender have a neurological root, I think it does. Thus, gender and sex wouldn't need to be the same thing.

 

@Atherhog ; gender, sex, and sexuality are not the same, but @ssez doesn't self identify as anything so we can ignore him.

 

Historically it was used as male female, its only recent that they started to change the standard use of the word, its history and usage was speaking of someones sex. Can find hundreds of years worth of books etc using it as such including scientific documentation.

An albino African would still be African but would not be "White" again science can prove that.

Part of an article below and his credentials after.

"Dr. Joseph Berger has issued a statement saying that from a medical and scientific perspective there is no such thing as a "transgendered" person, and that terms such as “gender expression” and “gender identity" used in the bill are at the very least ambiguous, and are more an emotional appeal than a statement of scientific fact.

Berger, who is a consulting psychiatrist in Toronto and whose list of credentials establishes him as an expert in the field of mental illness, stated that people who identify themselves as "transgendered" are mentally ill or simply unhappy, and pointed out that hormone therapy and surgery are not appropriate treatments for psychosis or unhappiness.

"From a scientific perspective, let me clarify what ‘transgendered’ actually means," Dr. Berger said, adding, "I am speaking now about the scientific perspective – and not any political lobbying position that may be proposed by any group, medical or non-medical."

"‘Transgendered’ are people who claim that they really are or wish to be people of the sex opposite to which they were born, or to which their chromosomal configuration attests," Dr. Berger stated.

"Some times, some of these people have claimed that they are ‘a woman trapped in a man’s body’ or alternatively ‘a man trapped in a woman’s body’."

"The medical treatment of delusions, psychosis or emotional happiness is not surgery," Dr. Berger stated.

"On the other hand," Dr. Berger continued, "if these people are asked to clarify exactly what they believe, that is to say do they truly believe whichever of those above propositions applies to them and they say ‘no’, then they know that such a proposition is not true, but that they ‘feel’ it, then what we are talking about scientifically, is just unhappiness, and that unhappiness is being accompanied by a wish – that leads some people into taking hormones that predominate in the other sex, and even having cosmetic surgery designed to make them ‘appear’ as if they are a person of the opposite sex."

He explained that cosmetic surgery will not change the chromosomes of a human being in that it will not make a man become a woman, capable of menstruating, ovulating, and having children, nor will it make a woman into a man, capable of generating sperm that can unite with an egg or ovum from a woman and fertilize that egg to produce a human child."


Dr. Berger is certified as a specialist in Psychiatry by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada and by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology, and is an elected Distinguished Life Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association. He is also a past Chairman of the Toronto district of the Ontario Medical Association and past President of the Ontario branch of the American Psychiatric Association.

Berger has been an Examiner in Psychiatry for the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology for twenty five years, has taught as Assistant Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Toronto, and is the author of many published papers on different aspects of Diagnosis and Independent Psychiatric Assessments, as well as author of the book “The Independent Medical Examination in Psychiatry” published by Butterworth/Lexis-Nexis.

 

you insinuated that skin colour did matter with race, now you say it doesn't. Here's a fact, there is more genetic diversity between two African people than between a English person and a Chinese person. So, how do we classify race?

There are many interesting neurology papers out there which show a neurological cause to feelings of transgender. Not that they are mentally ill, rather that certain areas of their brains respond in the same way as the opposite sex.

The reality is that are old definitions are not fit for purpose and our knowledge has moved on.

 

I was basically saying if someone can self identify as female why couldn't a person self identify as a different race ? then on government/college/whatever forms etc you can select whatever race you want since you self identify as such, just like gender.

Yes there are many nuerological papers written on it in fact in my post was from

"Berger has been an Examiner in Psychiatry for the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology for twenty five years"

So the examiner in psychiatry for the American board of psychiatry and NEUROLOGY said basically all the gender stuff is BS so yea your right great stuff out there on neurology.

I will side with his opinion over yours saying the definition of gender has changed, no offense lol

 

I know of some cases where it has happened. One is a transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox who was XX but allowed to compete with XY. The Nevada athletic commission licensed "her" to fight as a woman. Interesting read if you have not seen it before and second link has more thoughts about it.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/t...-female-opponent-concussion-breaks-her-eye-so

http://www.inquisitr.com/2161284/fallon-fox-transgender-mma-fighters-be-allowed-to-fight/

 

Which would be fair, but it's not my opinion. I mean that there are peer reviewed scientific papers which claim the opposite of what your dude claims. I can link the published papers for you.

is there a peer reviewed paper linked with your guys opinion, or is it simply his opinion?

 

if someone is on an american board of something you can be sure they are somehow wrong about something, just look at the texas board of education or the comitee on space, science, and technology.

 

I just looked him up properly. He isn't an expert in this field at all, he's just mouthing off.

Dr. Joseph Berger simply presents his opinion on the subject. There are many people who have done rigorous scientific work that say he's talking nonsense - actually, the vast majority.

But hey, why let sound science get in the way of fear and bigotry.