Its irrelevant why a certain champ has 9 speed or not. We are talking here about difference between different factions and how their faction bonuses are used/misused by devs. Not about certain champs and how to use them or if they are effective or not in certain decks etc.
But they aren't? KF's faction bonus does what it's meant to do - gives us extra reach on champs that are otherwise slow. It's not meant to give us 9 or 10 tilers, because those aren't balanced unless strictly designed around it (example of that being Twisted Fireoak).
I choose KF some 10 years ago because it was the quick faction. Not because it was the bulky slow faction. But the way devs exploit the KF faction bonus, in some attempt to go around their own rules (to rebalance?), now KF is the bulky, slow and cheap faction. To show this is true, anyone can read this thread or look on poxlist.
And how did you come to the conclusion it's a bulky and slow faction? While there are a few bulky themes (Garu, Rangers), the majority of our champions are relatively frail. Same applies to your argument of speed - we're not a slow faction: in fact the combination of abilities we get as a whole means we're one of the fastest factions in the game, be it via base speed, AP- and SPD-granting buffs or abilities like mobility, pounce and the likes. The only thing to have gone down is INDIVIDUAL champion speed, which is what happened ACROSS THE ENTIRE GAME.
Read all the thread above, I don't want to repeat myself again and again. plus: I play split. I have as a result no 8 or 9 speed movers. No 2 or 4 ap spells. And the least 7 speeders to choose from. And most often my kf champs have more hp but less speed than the chaps from my opponents.
Lash Down and Fire for Effect are the only race/class-restricted AP granting spells in KF. The others give it to everyone. I've read every single one of your posts and so far you seem to dismiss or ignore my points. 1. I brought up AP-granting spells in KF, you ignored that. 2. I brought up that we have enough AP generation and AP saving abilities that we don't need 8+ self-managing champions. You ignored that. 3. I brought up that, despite the aforementioned, we still have champions that can afford your weird requirements. You dismissed it saying that it has to be teleport 2, leap 3 or teleport 3, otherwise it's conditional and doesn't matter. 4. I brought up that Garu and Rangers are our bulkier champions. I watched your matches and Garu are your most deployed champions. You then go on and say the entire faction is like that. What? 5. Splits are, by nature, abusive and exploitative - as such they provide you with a myriad of options from other factions, be it AP generation, damage or other tools. KF already has the toys to get more SPD, AP or mobility - just because you refuse to acknowledge them doesn't mean the faction is slow. I'm trying to understand your thought process here, but so far I can't seem to get the gist of it.
I replied all already and you just ignore replies and facts. 1. AP granting spells with KF exist, but are not so powerfull like the ones from some other factions, as mentioned, 3 other factions have access to +4 ap spells, KF has +1 ap spells etc. 2. not relevant what you and your friends "need", thats not what the discussion is about 3. I said what I mean with 9-mover is a champ who can move 9 spaces every turn, including especially first turn, without any help or restrictions or special conditions. This would be equivalent (or better) to 9 speed in terms of movement, hence 9-mover 4. I love my garus and I can win with them even they are 6 speed. Again this thread is not about what is needed for certain Champs or similar. Its ONLY about the faction bonus and how devs have exploited the KF faction bonus by minimising its usefullness by intentionally giving very few KF Champs high speed / movement. This goes for both FF and Split. 5. Again this thread is not about the "myriads" of spells, abilities etc in the game, its ONLY about the faction bonus and especially KF faction bonus vs UD one, showing how KF Champs have low speed as BASE while UD have high damage as BASE, as the higher stats are the more value you get by adding one more, this way the devs have minimised usefullness of KF faction bonus while maximising the usefullness of UD bonus. On top of this, I also show that KF has the least 7 speeders in Split, has no true 8 mover in split and has no 9 mover in FF, while many other factions have this. So even with the KF speed faction bonus, still KF is not the quickest faction even in FF, even they dont have any other factio bonus like alll other factions who have more high movers.
As I said, the speed reduction happened across the ENTIRE game - the champions, that are still be able to move 7, 8 or 9 spaces are highly conditional, do so as part of their kit requirements (constant relocation, kinetic impulse etc etc) - if there's some particular champion you absolutely disagree with having that much tile coverage, feel free to post them. If KF had so many high-speeders, it'd quickly lead to a situation where enemies would be unable to keep pace and get outrun to the point, where it'd be too oppressive for the game - the champions we do have and the AP generation we do get is more than enough. The faction bonus is strong and its intent was never to give us 9-tilers but to make all of our champs speedier as a whole. You're focusing on individual bodies too much.
AGAIN totally irrelevant trolling by you. This thread is not about high vs low speed or about speed of certain champions or similar. Its a comparison between factions and their faction bonus and how that is used by devs in the champ development in a fair or unfair wayas well as if the result of faction bonuses is thematic correct or not and if its fair to old players to have their faction speciality inverted.
Trolling? I'm sorry, but I've been trying to explain to you through the last few posts that there's nothing unfair happening - the faction bonus does what it's meant to do and the champions designed in KF also do everything you'd expect them to do. There are no below the belt kicks involved or anything among these lines - the KF, on average, is faster than champions of other factions. What you've done is comparing the edge cases (aka highest speed champions) and using that >fraction< of data to determine the speed budget of the entire faction. What this means is that KF is not getting nerfed at development stage or anything like that - it just means we're not getting the edge case champions because the faction as a whole has so many ways of pushing all of our champions to the edge case that simply adding more would just intoxicate the game as a whole. Look, you're the one here who has to explain his thought process here - you won't do this by calling me, your faction representative, a troll. If you simply don't want this thread to bring any valuable feedback, you can say so, but right now I'm trying to understand you in case something >really< needs help - help me help you.
I explain again with very very simple words. Same like I already posted many times. After, please dont ask same question again logical assumptions: 1. faction bonus should be thematic, ie if you have speed bonus you should be quick, have access to many quick champs 2. stat increase on champs are worth more nora cost the higher the stat is, ie to go from speed 7 to 8 is worth more nora than to go fro 4 to 5. Same about damage, to go from damage 12 to 14 is worth more than to go from damage 6 to 8. 3. devs should not discriminate some factions over others during champ development observations in poxlist: KF has lowest BASE speed stats (for the high end) UD has Highest damage (on the high end) deduction from observations based on 2 and 3: devs have tried to minimize usability of KF faction bonus while they have maximized UD one. Devs have broken against 3, discriminating some faction during champ development. maybe intentional, maybe by accident. observations in poxlist: KF have no 9 movers, other factions have. In split, KF have less 7+ movers than any other factions deduction from observation and based on 1: faction bonus is not thematic for KF, KF are not quick movers. Not in FF, especially not in split. Reason for this thread is to ask devs (SOK): a) why do you discriminate in champ development, why not balance faction bonuses instead b) why faction bonuses are not allowed to be thematic, why KF cant be quick and fragile like in the first years of the game? is this intentional mistake or not?
@polltroy Okay, fine, so you think we should have more high-end speeders compared to now so that the bonus can be utilised further. Fine. However, you have to keep in mind that there are still maps for future rotations where an 8-SPD champion will be a draw win and as such introducing >more< of them might not be healthy for the game as a whole, even if it'd reinforce KF as a speedy faction. Remember that SPD - as a stat - is much more powerful in terms of versatility (how it can be used) and tactical value (how it can affect the board) compared to damage. Besides how many of these high-end speedy champions are viable in the other factions compared to KF?
again irrelevant trolling by you, please stop. post in new thread if you want to discus what champs are viable or not and what should be overall high speed level. this thread is not about that
I am NOT trolling - you cannot discuss a faction bonus without mentioning champions, because they're the ones affected by it. The questions you have are already answered - there's no discrimination happening and KF is STILL a quick and fragile faction despite having two bulkier themes. NONE of that has changed. Claiming these two points take place because of KF not getting high-end speeders when the faction doesn't need them because of all the other tools it has is just twisting logic's arm at this point. If you disagree with this, take a look at how many viable 6-SPD champions KF has compared to everyone else. It's really annoying that you refuse to listen to reason and just dismiss everyone that doesn't agree with you as trolling.
What logic? How is it irrelevant when it's directly tied to the faction bonus discussion? Every single time I tell you that the bonus is thematic and that it reinforces the faction properly you keep telling me I'm trolling and that what I'm saying is not relevant to the discussion. I'm sorry, but are you sure that train of thought involves logic? 1. The faction isn't being discriminated upon during champion development. 2. The faction is not in need of individual runes that'd require high speed based on their kits. Whenever a kit requires that speed, it's granted to the champion just like in any other case. 3. At the same time, the faction's champions remain quick, nimble and maneuverable on the board. 4. The faction as a whole still is quick and fragile as most champions don't cross the 50 HP threshold while maintaining 6-7 SPD (either in FF or splits). 5. However, there was a shift in design to make it so that the faction as a whole has less INDIVIDUAL high-tilers in favour of TEAM-ORIENTED tile-coverage. This is backed up by the fact we have THE MOST champions with Swap rank 3 (8, along with Savage Tundra), THE MOST champions with Relocate: Ally (4) and THE MOST champions with Declare Hunted (5). All of the aforementioned abilities reinforce the theme of KF as that of a quick, nimble faction. 6. We're also one of the few, if not the only one, factions with access to AoE 2 teleport 1 for up to 9 champions at once at a cost of 5 AP only (Mass Teleport, check De'lim the hero). Elven decks also get on-spot access to Teleport Rank 2 via Epochal Oasis, giving them even more reach. 7. We also have access to a lot of ranged, heavy-hitting champions and have some of the most long-ranged champions in the game as one of the few factions. 8. The aforementioned points further reinforce the argument that we're a quick, agile and fragile faction. The only thing to have gone down was individual speed, which was resolved by encouraging team-oriented and conditional relocation. The latter is also common enough within KF to be consistent. 9. The addition of all these abilities has also reinforced KF splits by giving them more abilities to move around with despite the global reduction of speed across the board. How can you say we're a slow faction when all of these points (along with all the other ones brought up in my previous posts) are taken into the account?
none of what you said is relevant to this thread that was made to answer question a) and b) above by devs we can make a new thread discussing why KF has so many bulky themes (or not) etc.
