only been saying ST is the best faction in the game for YEARS! http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php...s-beyond-patch-notes.22279/page-8#post-305001 http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/so-nora-gem-and-soultap.16056/#post-314931
I admit, I've missed big chunks of this game's lifespan (I've probably been away longer than I was playing) but coming back and playing a bunch of games now, my two cents: ST is totally bent. I don't recall a time (well, since Necromoga at least) when balance was as poor (and the very top tier decks were so stale). Luckily, however, there's actually a tonne of very viable decks and, thankfully, the playerbase is sufficiently low that /very few/ players are currently playing the to be maximally competitive. But, if people really were just playing the best stuff, everyone would be playing FF ST or ST/SP (with a smattering of other good ST/x splits, like ST/FS) - ST is so badly out of whack that it is oppressive on deck selection (or would be if people were playing competitively). I just don't have a deck that I would want to roll against a competent player with FF ST - in fact, I often just scoop, unless I know my opponent is a spud (and even then, I don't remember playing a game against FF ST and having an easy time). I'd strongly encourage you to play a bunch of games with cards like baby furbull, ice stars, frigid barrier, icefang, kento (although, this one is probably the least bent)... there's more, but they're the most egregious examples.
I don't disagree ST needs nerf, which is why there's a list of almost a dozen ST nerfs coming (affecting much of what you listed). One part of this is that this was a correction that was going to need to happen if we consider "recent" changes that reduced damage output across the board - ST and SL both emerged as top tier factions in the aftermath due to their bonuses being more defensive in nature and compounding well with increased CDs and reduced DMG on a number of abilities and runes. And yea, K'ento was recently nerfed so that's probably why it's not as much of an issue as if you had come in before that. Personally, I don't think balance is worse than ever, that seems a bit extreme considering we used to have things like 2x Lich King and 2x Finlord running all over the place. But it's hard to tell with limited players and data. I think what's happening is that there is less crazy so anything that's a bit stand out is more visible, because it's not in a sea of crazy - so something like Icefang (which, all of the mid-terms were tuned a bit higher than I normally do) ends up being quite problematic because it's fairly alone in where it stands.
In overall terms, datawise and anecdotally, there's more variety and playable builds than ever. There are lots of combinations and modules that are viable now at all levels of play instead of only a few top tier combo decks. The problem with lower population and effort is that balance issues take longer to suss out and things become an issue more quickly since you keep seeing the same thing over and over and that creates a feedback loop on itself. In the old days, when there were a lot more players and a lot more games, it was more evident as to what was actually rising to the top instead of what was just being played by the better players today. And of course, that also meant that even if something was out of whack, you were less likely to keep facing it as more players introduced more de facto variety. @Destorum also made a good point on Discord just now, about how the game has shifted: "you just actually had to play around what the opponent was planning do, as of now you just kinda get away with just reacting to what they are doing instead" And maybe this is the kind of "combo" you were talking, kthx, where you get to play a bunch of runes on your turn to generate something crazy - the other player has to be aware of the potential to avoid/mitigate it. Now, the game is more tactical in nature, and more about what you see on the board supported by the other stuff, rather than the other stuff dictating. Part of that is less about nerfs and more about the overall rebalance back to baseline that Gedden initiated. Champs are a lot less crazy efficient now which means that there is less real "value" being removed when you run certain combos. Drowning something that, on the board is worth 150+ nora is a lot more optimal than drowning an 80 nora champ that is worth 80 nora.
There was a general reduction of first turn high movement capable units, particularly flyers, but it wasn't a SPD or KF thing specifically.
Heh...sounds like like the council hasn't changed, then again soko will say it was all him anyway so i'll leave that alone. Anyway could always be worse i guess.
Well if you want to be nitpicky then the only thing to have been suggested by the council from these was the Font Bonus nerf and the cap on impulse.
well to be honest most of those nerfes are irrellevant, kb - is a non issueice shard - is a non issue, i thoguht this was cheaper but i guess not. declare hunter - ? must have something to do with an abuse I'm unaware of because this ability was fine. either way the st sources of the abiltiy are largely over costed unless something was changed so non issue. frigid barrier - sucks to see another aoe nerf but doubt it will be the last, I assume the goal here is to make it so all st aoes are never used like ice storm and deep freeze. this erks me a bit because as far as I know SL spams aoe's like they're going out of style and we can't even have one that needs to be cast on a font without it being considered op, I expect it to settle at 60 nora a year from now. regardless this specific nerf is minor enough to be a non-issue, but the culimnations of the nerfes it's recently had and where it's likely going is on the same track as ice storm. Swap - well I don't look forward to facing SL AOE and range spam without swap...that match up is going to be fing horrible now. don't want to think about much else on this one, and since I'm not playing I don't need to. range stance - meh orb - i mean it's a non issue to me, but it does bother me to see another source of ice or snow nerfed, st needs more terrain options but what ever sok is in charge let him do as he wants, it doesn't effect the balance of the faction any so non issue to me, some who used it as pseudo detect may need to come up with a new tactic. kinetic - never used it so no comment, since it's a new ability from a new rune nerfes are to be expected. ice fang - see above. font bonus - sucks but oh well i guess some of the other factions have largely irrelevant font bonuses as well, it's not the worst but far from the best. it's no IS or FW bonus, but it wasn't before either.( que st has hp yada yada yada don't care really that is an argument that can and has been going on for years not bothering to have it again, leave that to the people making the decisions ). I do wish that when ST and IS traded AP gain mechanic font bonuses that we had gotten theres though, and they got the one that will frequently be complained about frequently despite being strictly inferior to the other...but that's the story of AP reduction mechanics throughout the entire history of pox nora....I apologize to all of st for ever supporting it's creation, KF had the right idea of fighting to the last to keep their speed bonus i guess. Saying it now I should of known exactly where an ap reduction mechanic would go. ALL of them get nerfed repeatedly to uselessness....my bad =/
that i think the nerf is not an issue? I mean you could point to many things I just said, and I mean ALOT of things above could say i'm a st fan but not getting butt hurt about a minor nerf is your proof? to ellaborate though in a frost based deck getting 3+ amp units out to complement an ice shard to hit 50% is what they already did at 25%. nothing changed, thus a non issue.
Doesnt happen often but I pretty much agree with calisk, it doesnt change much. ST haters will be happy for a few weeks/months then they will be like wait a minute...and back on the forums.
That shard nerf will cut down on the ice amp which has been way too efficient for way too long, it will definitely make a difference. Orb will make a big difference too, that thing destroys melee heavy bgs.
it literally changes nothing about an amp deck, in the case they have less then 3 amp champs out it will at best be the difference of 1 damage on some basic attacks( not many if you do the math ) and 2 on something big like power attack from a kaeyun. and that's ONLY at 0-2 amp units on the board which is like the first 3 turns of a game after that it's literally the same as before. orb only effects melee centric decks from snow created by friendly units for the most part....which it still does, snow from enemies usually only effects retreating which melee decks don't tend to do without some relocation ability like minos ddoor, or leap, etc which snow doesn't effect. it's major effect is that it won't work as a pseudo detect, which is significant admitedly just not something that would effect enough games to make a difference in the grand scheme of thing, and could be adjusted for by including a yeti or some other detect source. now all said I won't deny it had some effect on mass moving troups forward, and in stall games it oculd lead to major cluster f's if you wanted into melee, but if the game stalled your playing melee wrong and you'll probably lose anyway to mass range dominance...either way agree to disagree i guess
It's the difference between a unit being left with 5hp and 0hp, which is enough. Obviously orb doesnt just affect falling back, it severely limits your positioning before engaging and any champion following the first champion has to avoid the snow left by it in order to save AP and engage, which sometimes isn't possible when there is snow everywhere. I'd rather see incremental nerfs like this than completely shoeboxing the faction in one fell swoop, if it's not enough Sok will nerf more.
no it's literally the difference ofa unit being left with 1 hp and 1 hp in most cases. 5% would only mean 1 extra damage on 15+ or 20+ depending on rounding ( my pox math is a bit rusty ), if it's 15 that means no difference on most of the playable frost units pre banner if it's 20 then it literally effects nothing outside of power attack ice shard like many things have been incrementally nerfed , it's why at this point the incremental nerfs have no effect...theres little left you can do to it, most amp decks don't even run it because it's more effecient simply to run amp champions, if he wanted to really hurt the amp deck he'd hit the amp champions, but then st would shift to another theme. that's why most of this is pointless, every faction has dozens of themes that can go in and out of style at a moments notice of the will of the nerf hammer.
So what games are you playing where you just one shot everything with 11 damage? most champs are going to take 3-5 hits to kill.
I did my math wrong it's actually 15 also it's base damage. take a look through the st faction, pick out all the champions with 15+ base frost damage(or with abilities that can reach that damage), that's everything this nerf effects, and only a small subset of the time. soko of all people would be aware of this, back when he was a player and the game was young he created amp charts to display this exact kind of thing.
