So all this complaining about tokens...

Perhaps DOG has had a plan to implement a free method of obtaining tokens all along and what they did presently is just temporary. The holy crusade to make everything free just seems like your all acting like a bunch of spoiled brats. Out of curiosity how many of you have even financially contributed to DOG lately to show your appreciation for what they have done?

 

- We have a "its bad" thread already... this thread had a chance of being "this is how you make it better " thread but its not. Regulate touched on some areas but no one has suggested anything worthwhile.

- It is ironic that I have to fill in these ideas for your arguement. More cp for facing "human" opponents , possibly more token procs in packs boxes, completing dailies awards you one random token? This took me 5 seconds. And is taken more seriosuly then "omg its the future where every single customer gets exactly what they want at the exact right moment nerd!!"

 

More grinding, less new players.

I like the mentality

 

we already suggested the best possible (today) idea -- remove CP system altogether. this is why we didn't suggest worse/bad ideas like more CP for human opponents. I thought it's quite clear.

it would mean that you're forced to play in disadvantage to feel better about doing the right thing (since you would feel bad missing opportunity to get more exp).

it's not like pox suddenly will become heaven of free-to-players just because CP system is removed. it's only a small step, but in the very right direction.

you should be happy that such reasonable persons as Regulate and LoganMkv gave their efforts to explain you some things. I strongly believe it wouldn't be right in point of view of any reasonable person to continue discussing with you.

ignorance.

 

"Entitlement", "Spoiled brats", ...

What a way to talk about your customers. Do you see people lining up somewhere to play the game? Didn't think so.

Players don't have to convince you why they should be allowed to have fun, you need to convince players that they want to spend time on the game, rather than one of the million other things they could do with their time.

The reality is that these days players aren't going to pay to avoid annoyance, they are going to pay to reward (and get more of) a great experience.

 

Which is why the issue is how to make the grind flow better aka more fun as stated earlier. I'll agree that the 2-10 cp model is outdated. I never said anything against that otherwise. There's no need to entirely remove it just because some people are ignorant about alternate revenue models either though. Removing it is the easy way and something to appease only the players rather than the health of the game. Remedies aren't always easy. We can make CP extremely easy, like 4 games to full CP AND keep the token system if necessary - Even Two games are fine. It'll be like dailies. The point is to keep the token system because that's a possible source of revenue. Just having its existence means some more possible profit is gained. It being an option at all for years mean that Some people are paying for it which is better than none. Play 2-4 games for full CP and retain the token system may be for the best now that I think about it. Keep some of the possible revenue (though less than before because the grind will be much easier with the 2-4 game change) and make CP much easier is a fine compromise imo.
But that's another easy method - though more mutually viable. Gradually, Pox should have a grind that's fun like the current games, yes. But that's a combination of improvements to the game as a whole.

Also, someone mentioned how PoxNora is to sell the multiplayer experience. That's actually a common misconception. While I am not one myself, there are vastly more people interested in the single player aspect. It's strange, I agree, but I assure you that there are much more hours clocked in on campaigns than actual ranked games. We simply don't notice most of the time because those same players only post every once in a while. Balance and patches don't seem to concern them as much. I dunno why, maybe it reminds them of DnD tabletop campaigns or something like the graphics suggest. However, I have noticed this as I got more people who have experience in tabletop or card games to play Pox. They become fixated on Single Player for ages/months/years.

 

LoL is without grind. Hearthstone is without grind. Smite is without grind. Planetside is without grind. HoN is without grind. I don't know how to get it into your head, but grind isn't up to date. Grind is yesterday and will spook your players.

 

How is League without grind. There's a grind - you just don't notice it. And sometimes you do notice it (aka for Runes when you first hit level 20). That's the great balance of grind that all games should try to achieve. It's a delicate point of off and on noticing so the consumer is slightly pricked / poked into making an investment.

Grind isn't up to date? There will always be a grind because that's how you get money. There are just different methods in implementing it.

 

Thats not grind, thats being rewarded for playing. Grinding is defined by repetitively doing things that are not exactly fun, such as, here, exploiting singleplayer quirks or commiting ranked suicide.

 

Getting rewarded for playing IS GRIND. That's the very definition of grinding. You play (doing alternate and repetitive tasks) and get rewarded because you finish the grind. Doing things that are not fun a lot is ALSO GRIND. It's grind implemented wrong / negatively. We're making/trying to make Pox implement it positively.
There are textbooks and reports documenting this aspect when WoW became prominent as a valuable case study. You thinking that being rewarded for playing the same map is not grinding means that some game successfully made grinding fun for you. A lot of games do that now. Pox is trying to do that.

 

Grinding is by definition repetitive and, to a western audience, usually dull. Getting rewarded for playing is not grinding. Check your definitions, they are wrong.

 

The problem isn't how long it takes or how much tokens cost, the problem is that almost nobody wants to use uncp'd runes in ranked.

There is no elegant fix to this that I can think of and it's just forcing people into either grinding (in SP) or buying tokens. Both of these are bad roads to feel steered down.

In an ideal world people should be able to take unlevelled runes, queue ranked, and not feel like a moron.

That's not the case, therefore the CP system is broken and should be removed.

 

Yes Boozha is right on this. It's just a matter of definition, but it's an important one. Grinding is to execute the same repetitive and mundane task over and over for the express purpose of achieving the reward. It is the opposite of being rewarded for playing the game / having fun.

Playing the game and earning gold in the process: Not grinding.

Farming single player campaigns by repeating the same set of optimised maneuvers over and over again: Grinding.

Most of the time you have a choice whether you "just play the game" and get naturally rewarded, or whether you grind for quicker rewards. But when grinding becomes the only feasible option (other than paying), you have a problem.

 

Grinding has a negative connotation Boozha. That does not mean the definition is wrong. According to one textbook: "The relationship is to encourage players, consistently rewarding their grinding effort." Getting rewarded for playing the same game mode is grinding. You are doing a task repetitively and are rewarded for it. It's only a matter of whether it's fun or not. Grinding by nature and history has a negative connotation but that does not mean grinding can Only be not-fun. You seem to think that grinding is some sort of endless abyss where you are not getting anything out of it.

I agree and support that people should be able to take unleveled runes and do fine and get CP that way while having fun. That'd be be optimized situation. That's playing the game as it should. Pox should and is transitioning to that but there's a lot of SOE mistakes to correct as we gear towards that. You don't need to take off the CP system when a game is fun enough to play through. That's what I've been getting at. We can make the game fun and play-through-able. But we need the CP system as well as a source of revenue to sustain the game. We can make the CP system really easy with vastly increased gains while runes are improved but the existence of another source of money is, imo, necessary

 

And yes, removing the CP system is the "easy option", but there's nothing wrong with easy. Gold for runes is a much better motivation than gold for tokens, and it offers a more decent balance between rewards for playing and rewards for grinding.

It's not like you remove tokens and suddenly new players get everything for free.... far from it. Even if you remove the CP system, this is still going to be one of the most grind-heavy games that I know.

 

The "fun" of grinding is entirely in the rewards. If the act by itself is enjoyable, then it isn't grinding. To understand the difference, you can always ask yourself "would I do this if I wouldn't be rewarded for it"?

 

I don't even mind removing tokens completely that much. I voted for removing them on the other thread and making the grind easy with just 2-4 games is basically removing them for the moderately persistent. But what I do mind is if buying packs become the only source of revenue for a game that can't sustain it. If packs were the only way to generate funds, you stop making money as the game gets older. Every veteran player here is an example. We don't need to buy packs anymore. Over the course of the years, our collections are complete and we have excess to trade for the new stuff. There is no money to be gained unless we feel like supporting the game. Thankfully, a lot of us still feel obliged to do so.

I mentioned this when it came up years ago but if Pox simply had cosmetic stuff to buy such as bringing back the Taunt tokens and such, we wouldn't be having this conversation (at least I wouldn't)

 

If you have a complete collection and enough excess to trade for everything you want from new expansions, then you must have invested at least hundreds, if not thousands of dollars in the game. If that's not enough to make you a lucrative customer for a lifetime, then something is seriously wrong.

But yeah, cosmetics / collector's editions would be a good way to allow hardcore fans to continuously support the game. That's the contemporary way: Delight your customers and make them want to spend on your product. Heck, Humble Bundle is raking in millions just by asking their buyers "what is this worth to you?"

 

Here's a summary from my perspective because it seems like we're getting side-tracked a bit and I feel like we're (most of us) are expressing good points.

Thread Tl;Dr:

The current grind / CP System is bad and un-fun because runes are not optimized to be fun at level 0. This can / should change and is currently changing but will take loads of time. Be patient. Make suggestions on how to and which to. Don't just go BLUUH Take it out because it's un-fun without understanding why it's necessary. Don't go BLUUH Take it out because you're not going to offer / am competent enough to offer any other method.

The game needs an alternate source of revenue because buying packs certainly won't do it for the majority of the veteran population. There simply aren't enough new players coming in to support only pack buying. It doesn't matter how much you spent before as part of the veteran population. ( @Zenity ) This is a whole new company and your money didn't go to them after they spent loads to buy the game (back). Me trading for the new stuff means Owls got nothing from me EVER - opposite of lucrative. An alternate revenue source is necessary to sustain the game as it gets gradually improved / removing SOE-ness. This new players bit changes as the game gets better as a whole.

Currently, the grind / CP System is this alternate source of revenue. It's not the best and certainly not as fulfilling to the player as Taunt Tokens or other cosmetic stuff (remember winter hero skins? could be expanded upon) but it's what we got right now and what we should keep until something better comes out. The only other thing are tickets and when was the last time someone used those to play a fulfilling draft game?

If we take out the CP System there is no grind to upgrades but there will also be no alternate revenue source which I think is necessary to keep. This can be corrected by adding other things to buy (Secret motive: Gimmie my Taunt Tokens back since they're still in the game already)

 

Gold is not revenue.