It's the lack of specifics that's the problem. For example, when you say "high nora" I don't know what that means. Every faction uses the same formula for costing, so there's no systemic discrimination against KF at the cost level. If there are specific design patterns in KF that's causing this that you have noticed, I'd be interested in hearing specifics, but there's not much to look at with a general "our champs cost a lot" type of statement. Do KF champs just have more abilities in general? Thus they end up costing more with less HP (though they aren't paying for nothing). I haven't been doing that deliberately, but it's possible. Do KF champs just not have enough HP in general and we can just add +5 HP to most KF champs at cost and it's "fixed?" Maybe? But see how different those 2 ideas are? I don't know which one you feel is true or which direction you think the "fix" should be (assuming there is a need for a fix). I have made MANY MANY changes to KF runes based on Xirone, Gorebucket, and the feedback of others. For example, Solstice Marksman changed because of a thread cantha started and became 6 SPD instead of 5 SPD base. I don't "gloss over" stuff, but I ask questions because I need more information.
Hello @Sokolov, I have given you these ideas for three themes that are not really themes (Skarpox and I are the same.) http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/wilderkin-theme-ideas.20482/#post-273660 http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/elven-army-theme-ideas.21671/#post-294702 http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/kthiras-theme-ideas.22018/#post-298682 Granted, these themes include a lot of new abilities. However, there are some good ideas around them. Key Issue - KF relies too much on spells for buff and debuff. Answer - rework some units to increase survivability without being OP. Example - Elven Fury v. Ironfist Warsaint: The reason for this comparison is because they have similar roles, front line melee. Ironfist stats - 8,6,1,2,60, Heal Self 3, Loyalty (74 nora). Fury stats - 9,6,1,1,46, Block 2, Fury (64 nora). The Warsaint costs 10 more nora but has 20 more HP with Loyalty along with Heal Self and Purified, not to mention a faction bonus that reduces spell damage. Both of them has a theme enabler. The Warsaint has Empathy, and the Fury has Inspire. By comparison, the Fury, even with one speed bonus, will not last nearly as long as the Warsaint in its role. No one in IS would want the Warsaint changed because it is worth its nora drop, but the Fury is not, so how can you take an extra 8 to 10 nora's worth of abilities and drop it on the Fury so that it can better fulfill its role. I already made some suggestion in the upgrade thread you have going, but even those may not adequate enough. Key Issue - KF does not have enough powerturn spells. Answer - modify some spells for better powerturning. Example - Bullseye v. Peak Tactics: Bullseye is a 50% increase for a single shot for 35 nora. Peak Tactics is a +5 damage increase for one turn for 30 nora. Peak Tactics requires that you run up a champ to an enemy before deploy; and +5 damage is similar to 50% increase; but it does allow for double tapping, which is a large damage increase. An answer here would be to change Bullseye to the following: "Each ranged friendly champion gains Skirmisher and does 50% more damage for one turn." Put the cost at 40, and this would allow for greater turns with a higher damage output because of double tapping, and it plays into one of KF's strengths, which is range. Is this the type of feedback you want?
Yes, that helps. Altho that's not exactly the best comparison since they do not have similar roles at all. Warsaint is a recently buffed tank, while Fury is a weird... (and admittedly bad) champ that doesn't tank well, doesn't support well, and doesn't deal damage. Fury on this champ is almost wasted as it doesn't live long enough to make use of it, and none of its abilities help it make use of it. Conceptually it's cool though - the idea of it zapping +DMG as it fights to inspire allies is great, but it's just too slow in today's Pox. And yea, I already updated the Fury based on the feedback from that thread for the next patch.
Well, can a Fury become more of a tank since that is what we need? I mean not a tank perse but that it would be more tanky in its melee role.
Here's what I did with the upgrades: U1 is: Bold, Block 1/2 U2 is: Imposing Aura, Hunter: Fighter, Opp Assault Fury stays on base because it's what the champ design is. Inspire is gone. It also has 2 DEF. Maybe I will give it a few more HP as well.
Yes, it's the type of feedback I want but no way I am doing this. Bullseye is already one of the best spells in the game. Peaks Tactics is Flanking for 1 turn yes, so the +5 DMG can be potentially useful for an extra attack, but it is also AE2 and, as you noted, requires additional positioning, while Bullseye is global.
I don't like the idea of removing inspire, upgrade line 1 looks great, upgrade line 2 however i'm not sure. Assault is too expensive and very easily countered by an opposing champ with any range. I'd make fury into something like this Same stats, but 50 hp Upgrade line 1: Block 1, Block 2, resolute Upgrade line 2: enraged, rend 2,
OMG this thread is pretty darn scary. I really hope you are cautious with what you decide to implement here Sokolov.
Jakei frostseer 10 damage 6 speed 5-6 range 0 defense 40 hp, 50 in full faction st Snow strike, to keep opposing melee at bay while hitting from range, shatter summoned, frost greeting for global damage. All that wrapped into 71 nora. Arrow singer- considered one of k'thir best ranged units 9 damage- lower than frost seer 6 speed- higher than frost seer in full faction 4-5 range- worse than frost seer but gets a boost from archery bale and preparation 0 defense 41 hp Some dots, 2 ranks of retreat, horn of k'thir, cheapest she can be ran is 75 nora, she has defenseless on base 1 less damage, worse range, less hp in full faction. The retreat ability itself, this champion can disengage for free and move 2 spaces, ap cost 1 ? So essentially were saying it's free to move away but it actually costs ap, also 2 spaces isn't a lot when your considering the minimum range on her is 4. What i'd like to see her reworked too 9 damage 6 speed 5-7 range 0 defense 41 hp Upgrade line 1: burn 1, elusive leap, illuminate Upgrade line 2: Retreat 2 if it didn't cost ap, horn of k'thir, mobility On base abilities: camoflauge to help mitigate some damage against her and make vegetation bg's more effective Vulnerable aim @Sokolov
Which part was scary buffing that elven fury lol, he already said no to the bulls eye buff which didn't need buffed anyways. You talk a lot but very rarely add solutions or ideas. Start up a game and play some k'thir you will see real quick why nobody plays them currently. It's not because k'thir is terrible it's because most other factions just eclipse k'thir in every facet of k'thirs game range, speed, spell spam, summons.
"Which part is scary"? I'm always scared when clueless players give mindblowing suggestions to the dev and he actually starts listening. I mean, it's one thing to for that phd guy to give suggestions or say what he will - its his right. The other thing is Sok actually engaging the conversation and changing a rune that might or might not be needed to be changed in the first place. I mean, the comparison was terrible and at the end of the day he got what he wanted: a rune buffed. "Start up a game": I'm not going back to the game just to prove a point to your entertainment, thanks though. However, I find this argument really hard to believe: "most other factions just eclipse k'thir and every facet of k'thirs game range, speed, spell spam, summons". So you are telling me that, just from getting the bonus nerfed, K'thir is not the top dog on the things that actually made it top 6 months ago: range, speed and spell spam? Yeah, I'm not buying that at all and I think most KF players are suffering because they dont have a player to copy bgs from.
Range was nerfed, which in turn buffed all melee, k'thir spell spam has been nerfed multiples times, sl is currently the head of spell spam, all factions currently have on par range or better, k'thir hasn't received a 7 speed champ in a couple expansions, other factions have received 7 and and 8 speed champs, 8 speeders have stasis however. Tree summons have been nerfed a couple times, then the greenhouse nerf. It's very easy to sit and judge everyone when your not playing and don't even know the problems involved. Whereas everyone on this thread adding something to the conversation has tried k'thir and multiple different bgs. I'm not gonna argue with you because I know where that's headed, the same way it does with all the "top" players in pox. Everyone likes to talk but rarely any suggestions or positive feedback is added. Not a single player currently playing full faction k'thir in ranked play, not even a split with k'thir in ranked right now. So please continue telling me the faction is fine as is. I understand where your coming from though k'thir used to be mindless wins, and in turn was nerfed, a lot of which I called for those very nerfs mostly because of draw wins. For some reason we didn't stop at 8 speed champ nerfs and went through and nerfed every theme into oblivion.
Well, if you say so. But my advice stands: I really hope you are cautious with what you decide to implement here Sokolov.
Were not all out for buffs of crazy power, sok knows what he's doing and will shoot down any stupid ideas.
Okay Sok, this is the type of post you throw back at us; so I will do it in reverse (I mean this politely). When I say, "KF is in bad shape," you say, "These kinds of sweeping statements mean nothing because there is no data and there is nothing specific to fix." Then, if you say, "Bullseye is already one of the best spells in the game," I say, "This is a sweeping statement that has no data to support it and offers no fix to a problem." How do you support your statement that it is one of the best? Are you basing it off the quantity of times it is played? Look at your stats and see if that is true. Are you basing it off the nora cost to damage output? I would agree that it is solid as is, so it appears to not need a buff. But this spell isn't played much because other spells have better nora cost for what they do. This goes back to the issue I brought up: KF crutches too much on spells. When there are too many crutch spells to play, solid powerturn spells like Bullseye, as is, get overlooked. To counteract this issue, make Bullseye cost more nora for more damage. 40 nora was probably low, but you didn't offer a fix to that. Would 50-55 nora work to make it like Quickening in terms of damage potential? If you don't want to change the spell, then the other course of action is too provide other kinds of powerturn abilities for themes if KF that are not spells. Also, Bullseye is not global since it only affects ranged units.
I have already read that thank you, and my thoughts still stand. By the way, why are you posting here when you don't play?
Notes on Arrow Singer: The big reason that you left out for her current cost is Summon: Archery Bale at 15 nora - which you completely left out of the analysis - this gives her (and her allies typically) psuedo +1 MAX RNG, which seems pretty important to consider Going to 5-7 and removing Prep alone would push her to 84 nora I could see her losing access to Retreat altogether for something else on that line Elusive Leap is not something I typically want to see on long-ranged champions Notes on Retreat: Retreat costs AP yes. Rank 1 allows you to move 1 space for 1 AP in a retreating situation instead of 1 space for 3 AP. (This is functionally Mobility for 1 disengage, which costs 4 nora instead of 3). Rank 2 gives you 2 spaces for 1 AP instead of 1 space for 3 AP normally, and also allows you to move over obstacles/other champions. (This costs more than Mobility, but can give movement.) So I don't see a large compelling reason to change this.
You'd get more traction with me if you weren't selecting runes that are already frequently played. We just analyzed all the elements of both Bullseye and Peaks Tactics. I don't know what else you want me to say about it. One is GLOBALLY 50% bonus damage on the next basic attack (for ranged - but then, you don't cast it when you only have melee out that can attack right?). The other is going to affect 2-3 champions at most in most situations and requires additional positioning. There is no question that Bullseye is comparable or better in most situations in terms of efficiency and damage output. Of course, part of that depends on the deck, but that's always the case and we have to evaluate runes in normal use-cases. Also, Global describes targeting criteria, not what it targets, so yes, the spell does target globally, compared to the AE2 of Peaks Tactics - which is a MAJOR difference between the spells. Since I don't think it needs a buff, I am not going to suggest a fix to it - that shouldn't be surprising.
