I don't really like archery bale on her, their are many archers that could take the summon: archery bale for 15 nora. Archer commander makes more sense and could see her changed to be a support with bale and volley leader. Upgrad eline 1: distract, burn 1, farshot rank 2 Upgrade line 2: horn of k'thir, aim, strike remove preparation vulnerable on base instead of defenseless
Incidentally, I want to discuss this part a bit. Why do you think KF "crutches too much on spells?" What does this mean and how does one measure that? And why do you think making good spells even better fixes this in any way? Would that not just mean that KF crutches the same or even harder on spells (just a different one, maybe)? Additionally, how does a faction both crutch on spells AND not have good enough spells? How do you reconcile this apparently self-contradictory feedback? ~ Let's say we go with the assumption that it is true that KF does crutch too much on spells. That suggests the problem isn't the spells, but the non-spells. Are the relics and equipment in KF not competitive? That doesn't seem true to me, some of the most hated equipment in the game comes out of KF. That said, I did make a small pass on equipment in general for this patch, so some stuff did get a cost adjustment (like Aurora Lance got -5). So that kind of leaves general champ design trends? I think there might be some truth to this, but it's much harder to identify without concrete examples, but KF champs do, generally, play more synergistically and tend to have less stand-alone features than other factions - which I do think is one of the defining features of the faction. Is it possible too, that KF champions just have too many abilities on average, thus this is what impacts their cost/hp ratios? That's possible too, though again this bears further analysis and more concrete examples. Arrow Singer is actually a good example of this where the champion has RNG, and 2 abilities on base that cost 10+ nora, in addition to access to another one on U2 with Horn of K'thir. The game has certainly shifted away from higher cost champions, but I think it would be unreasonable to argue that those abilities aren't worth their cost. So perhaps letting you choose between Prep and Horn is a better idea in her case, for example.
I am fine with Archery Bale on her. Higher rarities is what typically has these kinds of abilities, particularly the higher cost ones. Without Bale, she'd just be a fairly generic ranged champion with access to Horn. There are plenty of archers to fulfill the role of 60-70 nora plinker, and it shouldn't be a Legendary rune.
I think it's a big part of what you just said k'thir champs have a lot of very expensive abilities on them. Then I tend to look at things like elven archer and compare it to let's say the jakei frostseer again. Actually the same cost frostseer has better hp, better damage, 2 on base abilities and 2 upgrades, what the big difference is elven archer has barrage which is fairly expensive. Look at elven mage, 77 nora and 10 nora of that is in amp magic, silly ability lines is what's crippling k'thir mostly.
When you say things like that makes me think rarity= power . Also horn in itself is a fairly powerful ability and not very common.
It means rarity = uniqueness and synergy. Commons/Uncommons are typically "fodder" kind of champs. Doesn't mean they are bad, but they aren't doing anything defining. Higher rarities, like EXOs and LEG, are where you normally find the really unique abilities that define themes and how they play. You put something like Maxx in a deck, and it changes how you build the entire deck - this is separate from power.
Elven ancestor, another decent unit with 6 nora in phase shift and 2 nora in arctic, if she had +1 range and no phase shift or arctic she'd be pretty dang good.
I agree with that but i'm saying she also has horn of k'thir which is a very powerful and fairly flavorful and unique ability by itself.
Except that Barrage is also really good, and plays directly into the traditional KF style of "I out-range you" and you HAVE to rush me or I am going to whittle you down at long range. She does have the stupid Sentry abilities on upgrades, but it does make her very lean (and I have looked at her before and don't really want to put something that would cost more on U2). I think Frostseer and Archer are actually a very interesting comparison. Differences: Archer has +1 MAX RNG (7 RNG is rare, and should be), while Frostseer has Shattered Summoned and Frost Greeting Barrage and Avalanche is kind of a wash - trading focus damage with one-rounding potential for AE damage and utility Frostseer costs a bit more, but has more HP Frost Greeting is probably the thing here that stands out, as it is one of those abilities whose value can scale quite a bit, and gives an immediate impact to the champ. I think I will add a few HP to the Archer tho.
If you want her to be a Horn champ, then the suggestion should be Horn on base replacing Summon: Archery Bale. There's no reason to allow players to run her as a sub-70 nora ranged champ by selecting away from Horn in that scenario.
But you see what i'm saying with the ability lines though, barrage is certainly flavorful but with her range and hp it's just an unnecessary cost and could be traded out. I'd also take that little frost seer any day.
I always pictured archer commander dropping the bale, just makes the most sense to me. I'm sure other k'thir players have better ideas though, just trying to show maybe why all elves and k'thir cost a bit much. Their are a lot of expensive abilities on k'thir champs.
I disagree. RNG 7 Barrage is rare and powerful. I don't know why you consider Barrage to be "unnecessary cost." It's functionally +X DMG except burstier. If she has a problem, it's 34 HP.
Those abilities are fairly well costed, I think. Do you think they are overcosted? That said, CA: Melee on that thing is kind of dumb.
So, I have examined a lot of runes in KF vs other factions last few days, and I am not seeing particular evidence for any SYSTEMIC problem other than some low HP values here and there (some of which I have adjusted. If you have particular evidence that there's a faction wide design issue to be addressed, I'd like to hear what the evidence is, but KF doesn't pay more for stats (RNG, HP, SPD or anything else). In fact, often, I am seeing KF champs being more efficient because of not needing to pay for that extra point of SPD - which cost-wise translates into a lot of other stats or abilities. One thing I do notice is that this usually ends up meaning for 6(7) SPD happens more often, or else they are 5 (6) SPD and just cheaper - which contributes to a sense of "blandness." In other cases, they have stupid abilities that don't work well with their kit and just ends up "eating up" the faction bonus' efficiency. But bad runes being bad is true in any faction, so I am not sure this is indicative of anything systemic (and if you find them and point them out, I certainly don't mind adjusting them from time to time).
She'd be pretty expensive with Archery Bale, and I am not usually a fan of having a pair of racial-type abilities on the same champ. That said, she does bring up an interesting point... on a champ like Archer Commander, do KF players like her being 6(7) SPD? Or would they prefer 5(6) SPD and just be cheaper? Because a 6 SPD Rain of Arrows champ with Volley Leader at around 70 nora seems pretty nice to me compared to her almost 80 nora cost. I am not sure she makes great use out of that extra SPD.
This is kind of confusing to read. People keep saying KF has too many crutch spells? I would kind of say the opposite is actually true. We have one global power turn spell in bullseye, in comparison to things like mobi/quicken/swap etc. Where we used to dominate in AoE's with 2x natures wrath 2x thorn collection I feel they aren't as standout anymore. Most other factions AoE's now hit harder, with ampable damage or 12-14 base (not a huge difference mind) KF last got a damage spell 8 expansions ago with stellar horizon, which is also a really good spell in theme. This expansion we got inhibit power which is strong, but outside of that, since overgrowth/stellar horizon we haven't had any "wow that's strong" spells.
Why do you think NW and TC aren't good anymore? What new AOEs have arrived in other factions that outclass them? I'd like to crunch some numbers on these.
Also, there's been fewer spells last few expansions so it's not surprising there aren't as many strong/new spells recently (but that's true for most factions).
