St runes should be more thematically limited

Ferret snow spinner comes to mind, but there are others. Instead of only efficiency nerfin, they should be limited on how they can work together. Ferren with ferrens.

 

Why?

 

because running a bunch of random runes is bad for game design, as well as puts too much on a barrier to entry. On top of the fact most ST runes need a nerf anyways, this would be a good time to do it, which is why i made the topic

 

Ferren Snowspinner and Frostfall Vanguard is infuriating for most most bg's. Snow shroud is only a cool down of 1 with orb of frostfall like okay i get it skill.

 

vanguard?

interesting haven't seen any st player actually run that rune.

snowspinner was pretty heavily nerfed in the last patch with most st players support including mine, but he seems fine now.

anyway what is the point of this thread? I mean if i was to interrupt it at face value it sounds like your are complaining about meta decks and are somehow saying st is unique in having them...I must be misunderstanding something

 

I agree, Snowspinner is OP. It's abilities are crazy strong and should be consolidated to race the same way Commander and Defender etc were.

 

I love running Vanguard, it is horrendously OP:

• majestic 2
• frost acolyte
• hunter: small (covers most runes)
• Frost Overload (why is this necessary)
• Then a host of monstrous base stats... 11dmg, 2def, 50hp (+10 from bonus = 60hp), 1-2range

All for 81 nora!!!!!

Don't know if the algorithm for calculating nora costs was working when they created this lady.

All you need to run her with is some sort of ranged def (i.e. shroud) and shes nearly impossible to kill without spending a sh*t ton of nora.

 

that would be boring. a lot of games design like that (hearthstone, weiss schwarz) and i hate it.

 

sarcasm lol?

that seems about as hard to kill as any individual sl unit atm.

 

This is obviously an exaggeration.

But no those base stars are pretty standard

 

You could still play a meta bg if you chose, it just would be weaker in comparison. Instead of having a bunch of runes give multiplicative effects off each other, you would have additive interactions mainly in meta.

Besides, the games you mentioned do this for a reason, it certainly isn't "see how boring we can make the game"

 

There is a balance to be had i think, and it's something Pox has been negotiating for a long time.

On one hand, if you have too many prescriptive runes - those that only make sense within a racial theme - then you end up removing any kind of innovation or indiviualisation from peoples decks, so that it just becomes 'I want to make a yeti deck, so here are the yeti champs, the yeti spells, the yeti equips..'

On the other hand, if you make it too open ended, and the synergy too subtle, then you give very little way into these decks. It also risks all themes either becoming samey or very convoluted in designing new interactions.

Everyone will have there own opinion on where the balance should fall, but personally i think it is about right at the moment.

 

This is just a flawed argument. Instead of going in to huge detail, I'll just simply state that only 30 runes are allowed, so if there are more than 31 runes for a theme, you can be creative. Also worth noting is that spells are pretty splashable, so most themes easily have more than 30 runes.

When skeletons were gutted, I tried many innovative ways to play, for example, even using black pearls fairly successfully considering how dangerous they are. There are still creative mechanics in themes.

Also, this isn't only a balance consideration , it is also about other things. Including barrier to entry, depth, and long term stability. Flipping a coin is a really balanced game, assuming both sides of the coin are identical, that doesn't mean much though.

 

thats not at all a relevant response to what he just said. also he's right.

 

yup i played vs this combo a number of times, seems to be common in ff st, the vanguard is so hard to kill. only thing worse ive seen is snow shrouding an ireguard in a ud split, it had other buffs too.

snowspinner was nerfed, personally i wanted snow shroud's evasive + reflexes nerfed but it wasnt. idk if the changes made much difference.

 

the ud model = give them below avg damage and let the ud bonus make it up to reasonable.

the st model = give them above average health then let the st bonus make them super health champs.

#fair

 

average damage of a unit in st is 10 damage in game....I've never seen a 10 damage unit in ud in game, how ever i usually see 14-20+ damage on just about every unit

 

so you play the 10 damage st champs over the fair number of 13 damage i see played a lot, interesting.

 

Ok i'll put it this way, hunter small basically means that just about every time your opponent will do 2 less dmg, you've also got 2 less dmg from her def, you've also got frost acolyte which gives her + 2 hp and with chill coming from her attack, you're bound to get at least 6hp per round heal, you've also got majestic 2 rendering 1-2range champs useless... basically meaning that any champ that has 12dmg or less and is close combat or 1-2 range combat is utterly useless vs her... if you add some evasive with that (ferren snowspinner, shroud champs) then she also receives 4 less dmg due to hunter and def and has heal on top of that against ranged units... i don't think this is justifiable for 81 nora when she has 60hp and 11 dmg which is scaled up to at least 13dmg with hunter, and more with frost amp (which i know shouldn't be factored into this, however she has attack frost so its just another advantage that she has).... then if all that wasn't bad enough, she gives chilled champs equips that prevents you from equipping anything else, and also increases frost dmg further.... its nuts.

And yes SL units are ridiculously hard to kill... i agree XD

 

depends on the deck but usually yes, I tend to shy away from the 80+ nora units as they lose you games when they get spot removed by simple removal spells.

the vast majority of sub 70( if I can find any for the theme deck I'm looking to create at the time ) have 10 or less damage, very few reach 12 in the 70-80 category that make the decks, and of the 80ish i do find a reason to run, they tend to be back line like yeti painter and even he still only has 10 damage.

which is pretty much the same for ud, except their bonus pushes your cheep units damage way up.

anyway I agree in theory the vanguard should be incredibly hard to kill, and that's why I tried her awhile back, and she performed meh, she was tougher back in the day honestly, she just gets picked to death from range even with evasive, and most factions have some easy answers to get rid of her, plus if you run her with majestic she's 81 nora, and as I said that makes her a prime target for spot removal.

some easy answers that got deployed against her, st - range+permafrost obelisk, fw sac altar/doom/ED/soul/reapers/shank/etc, sl - mostly used range+bombs, etc. Ultimately I believe you'll have a hard time convincing me any unit in the current meta is too tanky, removal and damage output is just too high for that, and we have benchmarks like bastion around that are near impossible to kill