I figure we may as well do our best to point out the state of each theme and make suggestions on how to improve them. Just pick a theme or even just a section for a theme and make a suggestion or add to it. Note the issues sections don't have to relate to the "key" abilities/spells/etc. I also put down the key stuff as a guideline. I think there are a lot more spells, equipments, relics and abilities that should be in a theme but aren't good enough and aren't used at all. They are the ones worth talking about. I'll update it as often as possible. If your post focuses on just one spell, relic, equipment, ability or champion I can just link to your reply in that section ^^ THEMES Zombies Sub-Themes: Disease, Death-Benefit Key Abilities: Zombie Apocalypse, Zombie Herder Key Spells/Relics/Equipment: Elsarin Night, Corpse Pile, Corpse-A-Pult Key Units: Fleshweaver Witch Summary: Zombies aim to swarm as much as possible to overwhelm the enemy. Most zombie champions are cheap or summoned to allow quick swarming early on. More expensive champions such as the Fleshweaver Witch give advantages to zombies and aid them in swarming. Theme Issues: Ability Issues: Spell/Relic/Equip Issues: Unit Issues: Skeletons Sub-Themes: Surge, Summoning, Boost Key Abilities: Surge: Skeleton, Summon Skeleton, Boost Skeleton Key Spells/Relics/Equipment: Wake the Dead, Altar of Bones, Cloak of Skulls, Dark Rising Key Units: Boneshredder, Tomb Lord, Tormented Priest, Skeletal Lerper Summary: Skeletons need to propagate almost as much as zombies. They have a more militaristic theme. Skeletons have a slow build up with mid/late game powerhouses such as Surge and Altar of Bones but can supplement them early game my propagating units for surge with spells, relics, summons and equipment and using Boost Skeleton to counter their early weakness. Theme Issues: Skeletons 1 Ability Issues: Spell/Relic/Equip Issues: Unit Issues: Disease Sub-Themes: None Key Abilities: Amplify Disease, Disease Aura, Attack - Disease, Damage Shield - Disease, Death Nova - Disease, Black Death Key Spells/Relics/Equipment: Festering Wounds, Plague Key Units: Ghoul, Afflicted Corpse Summary: Disease relies on getting out amplification and dealing disease damage in as many forms as possible. Currently the theme lacks amplification champions and has many immunities in other factions and themes as well as relics. Disease also does not use auto-attacks for a lot of the damage it deals. However, as the theme is developed, the indirect damage of disease could be used to differentiate it from other amplification BGs. Theme Issues: Disease 1 Disease 2 (ramping up disease) Ability Issues: Amplify Disease Spell/Relic/Equip Issues: Unit Issues: Liches Sub-Themes: Surge Key Abilities: Surge: Lich Key Spells/Relics/Equipment: None Key Units: Shadestriker Summary: Theme Issues: Liches 1 Ability Issues: Leverage: Lich Spell/Relic/Equip Issues: Unit Issues: Stitched Sub-Themes: Key Abilities: Key Spells/Relics/Equipment: Key Units: Summary: Theme Issues: Ability Issues: Spell/Relic/Equip Issues: Unit Issues:
Vampyres Sub-Themes: None Key Abilities: Bleed, Blood Magic, Life Siphon, Lifedrinker Key Spells/Relics/Equipment: Blood Crest Key Units: Elder Bloodbinder Summary: Vampyres are expensive units based around long term survival using health regeneration abilities. Their healing is specifically vampiric and is boosted by 50% by the Elder Bloodbinder. Vampyres have a lot of synergistic abilities and interactions but lack spells and equipments. Some vampiric abilities such as Bloodlust, Blood Dispersal and Bloodseeker are not widely available at present for the theme. Theme Issues: Ability Issues: Spell/Relic/Equip Issues: Unit Issues: Creeps Sub-Themes: None Key Abilities: Creep, Creep Master Key Spells/Relics/Equipment: None Key Units: None? Summary: Theme Issues: Creeps 1 Creeps 2 (Proposed Patch Notes) Ability Issues: Creep Creep Master Spell/Relic/Equip Issues: Unit Issues: Witches Sub-Themes: Curse, Conditions Key Abilities: Elsari Coven, Pain Curse Key Spells/Relics/Equipment: Witching Hour, Chains of Corruption, Witches Hourglass Key Units: Elsari Magelord Summary: Theme Issues: Ability Issues: Spell/Relic/Equip Issues: Witching Hour Unit Issues: Spirits Sub-Themes: Incorporeal, Stealth, Possession, Surge, Soultap/Backlash Key Abilities: Surge: Spirit, Insubstantiate, Backlash, Soultap Key Spells/Relics/Equipment: Haunting Grip, Haunt, Darkmarsh Blackstaff Key Units: Utterdark Spectre, Shadestriker, Whisperghast, Lich Magistrate Summary: Spirits 1 Theme Issues: Ability Issues: Latch On [Bug] Spell/Relic/Equip Issues: Unit Issues:
Just an example of what I mean: (Updated the latest post to include this) Disease Ability Issues: Amplify Disease is currently an issue for the disease theme. While, for example, a Frost theme has many champion sources and relics supporting the provision of amplification, the Disease theme doesn't even have enough combined Amplification champions to reach the full 50% amp. This ability needs to be present on more disease champions.
This will be really good for reference! Good Job Fikule. I'll definitely be adding some stuff here later tonight and hopefully have some conversations about how to address some of the theme issues. For example I think a good change to witching hour would be: "All witches gain Revel in Misery and flying for x Turns" This adds synergy with the curse condition while making it less of a crutch rune due to +1spd. More general issues like your disease amp issue are really good to.
Fear could be considered another sub-theme. Both Disease and Fear have the issue that they don't work against other FW decks.
hasnt there been an official distinction is made between 'themes' (racial, class) and mechanics like fear, dmg type etc? I think we should try to stick to that.
I think you can still have a deck designed around a mechanic and refer to that as a theme. Otherwise Dread decks and AP denial decks wouldn't be considered a theme either.
For the sake of this thread, we can say a theme BG is one where all the runes work towards the same synergy. Class and Race has usually just been coincidental (i.e. a Beast could have Elsari Coven and would work in a witch theme.) Adding another anyway: Creeps Theme Issues: Creeps as a theme currently have a racial that makes or breaks them. When it is powerful, they are generally too powerful. When it is weak, they are generally unusable. They need a less decisive racial with synergy being spread out more naturally. The racial also specifically discourages using the runes outside of their theme, so when the racial is too weak, the units are generally not used at all. Ability Issues: Creep & Creep Master I just feel like these abilities do not work as a theme ability due to how much they influence playability. The downside is the Creeps themselves don't have an overall thematic objective (they all do different stuff). Honestly can't think of a good creep synergy. Maybe they can move for free within enemy or contested fonts with Creep and have Creep Master do something with Creeps. So Creep is generally useful and Creep Master would tie in the theme.
Liches- problems i think main problem with liches are that they take time to build up and the nora cost are quite high even with the cheapest upgrades even though they have really good nora support like lichling's leverage lich and apprentices/serviator worship lich the other support lich runes like whisperghast and skeletal reaper are quite good but again they dont get benefit of liches so it causes a little extra nora to takes those runes out
there are themes that you have a right to demand to be competitive, and then there are those that you don't. zombies, skeltons, witches, etc... if those are not up to snuff, they should be fixed. if dread or fear or my axe themed deck cant compete in the meta, oh well. using the term 'theme' to describe everything just makes the devs job harder and raises unrealistic expectations in some players. should it be the case that I can make a deck of all physical dmg champs (cuz like that's my theme), and then complain on the forums how bad it sucks and expect the devs to take action to address it? theme means something a little more than that now, is all im saying.
It would be interesting if creepers (mutants) became carrionlings, and fed off of a surge carrionling/boost carrionling theme. I could easily see a new unit (similar to Spawnpool Guardian) turning carrionlings into rotmaw creepers or something... either that or tying carrionlings into an existing them some how.
Pox made that cauldron to help all fire damage themes and we have been given reapers blade/ soul reave so I would think so. Competitive games usually don't have drastic hard counters like immunity to begin with, or atleast with no viable way to circumvent it. The fact that fear has been so easy to negate for so long is pretty unacceptable. I have always wanted to run a fear necrotuar for example but every time I go for it's fear upgrades I keep remembering how crap the unit is when they are negated. This is the same problem with the disease themes. 2 factions negate it, at least 2 can cleanse it into uselessness, and the rest can supply a non-coventional way of slowing it's effect down mostly because disease damage is centered around slow units. Disease is the worst supported and most easily countered damage type in the game. I made a thread about collection of souls awhile ago talking about how bad the decision was to give them attack: disease. Take all of disease problems and then add that shrines are not damaged by disease. Disease needs to be totally revamped. It needs a function outside of damage if the damage application is not getting buffed. Let units that constantly apply disease develop the disease into a powerful virus with side effects that can't be ignored.
Added pox and exiled posts as Liches 1 and Disease 1. Also, pox, an issue with Leverage: Lich atm is that it costs 10 nora for a 10 nora cost reduction on the next lich. It's like buying a shopping voucher for 10 nora that only works at lich-mart.
ThemeSpirits Sub-Themes: Incorporeal, Stealth, Possession, Surge, Soultap + Backlash Key Abilities: Surge: Spirit, Insubstantiate, Backlash, Soultap Key Spells/Relics/Equipment: Haunting Grip, Haunt, Darkmarsh Blackstaff(?), Soulreaver Key Units: Utterdark Spectre, Shadestriker, Whisperghast, Lich Magistrate Summary: Spirits is currently a great choice for a competitive BG. Now that Soultap is finally fixed, this theme is even more powerful with a little backlash thrown in. Theme Issues: None right now. Ability Issues: Since Soultap was fixed, none I can think of. Maybe latch on with haunting spirit? There were a few games where the champion got away without being cleansed... sometimes I even throw a Soulreaver on the haunting spirit so latch on can't be cleansed. Weird... something to look into for sure. Spell/Relic/Equip Issues: None Unit Issues: Haunting Spirit latch on.
What if Carrionlings just had surge: mutant instead? That would make them better instantly along with a 5 hp bump.
I don't mind fear getting some kind of rework if its not a useful mechanic. I just don't want to refer to mechanics as a theme.
@BroWatchThis Added the spirit changes. Can you tell me why Soulreaver is thematic to spirits though before I add that? @Ragic I think a mechanic can be a theme when it has enough potential synergy to support the theme. Fear has Psychological Warfare but not much else. If it got more synergy then I'd call it a theme though.
