The community should have the power to remove players from the Council

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Alakhami, Jan 12, 2016.

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  1. Bellagion

    Bellagion I need me some PIE!

    damn this took a twist
     
  2. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    He logged in yesterday.
     
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  3. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    We sell our soul for council privileges. Even in death...
     
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  4. Indijanac

    Indijanac I need me some PIE!

    Council is a closed system ruled by British and Americans ( no hate just saying facts )
    In general I don't know what improvements they made in course of this fun experiment , i dislike this game more day by day.
    But some people like this game at this state so i can really object , can only say my points of view.
    Im happy people are playing it even if i really am put off by it , cuz i think it deserves it.
     
  5. Indijanac

    Indijanac I need me some PIE!

    You got me
     
  6. ssez

    ssez I need me some PIE!

    The Irony lol
    You would be surprised how little people learn from history lol
     
  7. Atherhog

    Atherhog I need me some PIE!

    I like the idea of player council members. Good players, who know the game and understand balance.

    There are a few people I would trust with that job, and I don't know whether they're on the council or not.

    My worry would be this, and I think it's maybe what @Pedeguerra is getting at.

    Whoever is on the council that represents IS is doing an amazing job for their faction. There can be no other explanation as to why so much OP stuff gets ignored and powerful spells get buffed.
     
  8. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    We dont exactly represent a specific faction anymore but >.>
     
  9. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    The amount of times this has been stated and people still don't understand...


    Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe whenever Sok posts a buff/nerf in the council thread ANY of the council members can comment on it and possibly convince Sok to change his mind.


    Even after @Sokolov has said "I have the final say" y'all still don't seem to understand it.
     
  10. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    The Council pretty much works like the Cactuar Crate. I post stuff and ask for opinions.

    There are also threads like DMR's "list of summons" which helps me in fixing upgrades/summons and get them all sorted out (this is happening slowly). If this was posted in GD it'd turn into some massive nerf/buff argument. Instead, I can just take the information from it and do what I need to.

    I can also talk thru with them on some big issues like when I changed Defender/Commander - I worked out most of the nuances in Council before showing GD for more opinions.

    People PM in-game and on the forums all the time with suggestions. I discuss it with them too.

    I also discuss things with people in GD and faction forums as well.

    I really act no different in the Crate than I do outside of it.

    Yea, they have more of a sway in theory, and of course they see things like unreleased runes sometimes, but at the end of the day, no matter who I listen or don't listen to, you won't agree with all the decisions.

    Even if you could make all the decisions, you won't like everything in every patch. It's just reality.
     
  11. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Since this most recent tenure of mine, I'd estimate that IS is actually the most nerfed faction. I also still get accused of making ST the most powerful because once upon a time I used to play ST (though in reality I largely mained splits back then, mostly ST/FS). Every time ST gets something decent it's because "Sok is an ST player." It's patently ridiculous. Every faction gets OP stuff sometimes because sometimes OP happens, that's all.

    But that's whatever.

    The fact that is that OP stuff doesn't "get ignored" so much as "let go for now" or isn't considered OP. Everyone has their own lists of what is acceptable and what isn't.

    At the same time, making a list of what stuff a faction has access to isn't an argument for anything being OP. It's a list you can do for every faction and make it sound ridiculous. It also makes sense when you consider how many runes there are in the game and how much every faction has access to these days.

    In any case, I have already, and will continue, to nerf a ton of stuff. At the same time, I am leery of making the game boring by watering down every single ability that someone considers a bit OP (which I feel has already happened to some extent).

    Also, everyone has been asking me to review non-champion runes. I finally do and people harp on Macadamize specifically instead of focusing on the fact that DOZENS and DOZENS of runes got recosted? Are they all going to be perfectly costed? No, of course not. Is one of them going +5 or -5 going to shoebox it or make it insanely OP? Probably not. If it is, will Sokolov change it at some point? History says yes.

    Bottom line is that power isn't a flat line, it ebbs and flows with each patch and release. Everything is always in flux. When I am deciding on stuff for one patch, it can be weeks or months before that change make it into the game. My timeline and perspective is potentially quite different than other people. For example, if I know that there's a big nerf via codefix for something coming but it isn't quite ready, I may not nerf whatever it is in other ways because I know what's coming. In other cases, something might be OP but it's kind of a gimmick for the theme and as a build it isn't OP, so it's probably ok for now. In other words, I am playing the long-game here.

    But I am not so naive to think that any specific patch is going to make things perfect, nor do I necessarily thing perfect balance is achieveable or even desirable.

    There's also the fact that stuff no one is using and no one is complaining about is generally less likely to get nerfed. That's just how it has to be.

    I could ENDLESSLY tweak this game til the end of time and we wouldn't be completely happy. The nature of this kind of game is one of imbalance and what floats to the top. And you know what happens if I nerf something people aren't using? People complain about that too.

    So what are my goals for each patch?
    • Nerf some things that are running rampant
    • Buff some things that aren't being run
    • Fix some bugs
    • Work towards some longer-term fixes/goals
    You should see evidence of most of these in every single major release.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
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  12. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    In general, if you have specific concerns, feel free to bring them up in GD, or to me in PMs. If I don't know that something is considered a problem, I am not going to evaluate it.

    Things get evaluated because of one of 4 things:
    • I see something personally
    • Someone tells me something (forums, PMs, etc.)
    • I see something in the data
    • I am doing a review of some groups of stuff
    At the same time, keep in mind everyone has their own set of "pet peeves" of things that consider the most egregious. It doesn't mean everyone else also thinks that too. Some people are OK with certain types of things, and others thinks it should never occur.

    This is why no matter who makes a patch, someone is going to disagree with the stuff in it - but in the end, someone has to make the decision, and in this case, it's me :)

    All patches really do is change the list of things you have a problem with. I don't think that list itself ever goes away - which isn't a good or bad thing, it's just the nature of a game of this type.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
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  13. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I know before I was hired on as a green, the payoff of being able to help with the game I love and sometimes get some goodies and behind the scenes information was a valid payoff for me.

    Of course, when I got hired, it certainly did pay off for me, and now I have a career in the field that I would not have had.

    I personally give kudos to anyone (Council or otherwise) who provide constructive feedback and help. Even iajab has been helpful from time to time :) Which is why when someone is genuinely being helpful, I try and engage them even if I disagree with the premise. Because I think it's only fair to give that person the opportunity to make their case when they have put in the effort.

    And for anyone who might have felt ignored - know that it isn't done intentionally. I do forget/miss things sometimes (probably often), but it isn't personal!
     
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  14. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Council hasn't worked and sok saying he makes the "final call" when things like squire, terra former and forge hammer are still a thing is funny. The council is a bunch of hyped up players that are good simply because they get to decide what stays and goes and works towards their agenda at retaining rank with 3oo people. Sad to see it but that's pox, been this way for years hence the 300 players still, btw 150 of them are alts. Not to mention we have die hard zealots to the extreme that will argue that everything is fine in their faction.

    Their is a reason many people that played a lot don't play anymore, can only see the same cycle so many times.
     
  15. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    Did you not read what sok said or did you just choose to ignore it?
     
  16. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Forge Hammer was extensively discussed in GD and is slated for a nerf. It's in the Crate even. It needed a code nerf so it couldn't be done faster.

    I don't understand why you think something being discussed in GD (you and I both participated) and being nerfed is evidence of Council manipulation. In the meantime, it has already gotten a price increase even.

    So this makes little sense as an example.

    (Also, Forge Hammer is an example of something whose power level changed dramatically over time, due to the last couple of content releases with a focus on relics.)

    Terraformer is getting caught in a wider consideration of indirect damage (which may span several patches), and as I said in the other thread, has gone thru many iterations (some buffs/nerfs).

    Also, more generally, sometimes I like to let things sit for awhile and see if it is an actual problem - it has happened many times in the past where people got over something being played because it was recently tweaked. Just because something is used doesn't make it OP immediately.

    I am also planning on addressing the Brews problem.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
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  17. narvoxx

    narvoxx I need me some PIE!

    he might have him on forum ignore, wouldn't be too surprised
     
  18. Alakhami

    Alakhami I need me some PIE!

    God Sokolov just marry me.
     
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  19. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    upload_2016-1-12_15-54-10.png
     
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  20. Indijanac

    Indijanac I need me some PIE!

    I understand buff/nerf but try to spice it up and rework whole mechanic of a rune that's not being used and make it more fun.
    Cuz a lot of runes have clones left by revamp.
    One of those runes per month would solve revamp problem by the end of this year.
     
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