Any ideas on what to make on The Exile? Please compare it to Icesnap at 87 nora base The Exile - 106 nora [Deep wounds and Deep wounds on revere champs] 2x Witchdoctor Icesnap - 87 nora [Freezing Aura and Froststrike on revere champs] 2x Jakei Shaman 2x Lonx Defender Thirion - 103 nora [2-4 RNG + Magic Dmg, +3RNG and Amp Magic theme on revere champs] 2x Garu Chosen 2x Forest Dragon In my opinion, either Icesnap is poorly costed when we take into account Nora:HP ratio, Warding is also important for the dragons. FR'ed dragons aren't fun. But for SP-wise, how'd you think we should proceed with The Exile's revere, or theme? I'd say rather than stealing another theme: UD or KF, its best if we change it to Parastrike? (eq. to FW's black death, ST's revere bonus, UD deep wounds) Revere: The Exile - The Exile costs 10% less, this champ gets Parastrike Disease Breath taken out, and change it to Lightning Skewer? Its interesting to have the first 2x2 Lightning Skewer champ (without skystorm spear), while also allowing him to be the initiator for Parastrike revere champs. Then, maybe another Revere: The Exile champ that has Paralyze, or something? And Path 2 of sandbagged Regen1/2/3 upgrades into something else like: Tough 2 / Warding / ?? Do you guys think its better to keep the current Exile, or change him into a Parastrike theme? I feel cheated when we get Deep Wounds. Paralyze theme is exactly what SP have anyways.
I dont think faction bonuses should be taken into account in comparison between cyclical champs. If thats the case then every dragon should also get +10HP like Snap here. In any case, when you exclude faction bonuses, Snap is cheaper because he has poorer stats in comparison: 13 / 6 / 1-2 / 1 / 56 Vs Exile 17 / 7 / 1-2 / 0 / 70 Vs Thirion 16 / 7 / 2-4 / 1 / 60 Thirion in my opinion, cannot be compared to other dragons coz he's the only ranged cycle with similar HP and DMG... thats why I mentioned to compare it with Icesnap because he is much more similar (heavy flying guy with AoE cone). I wasnt comparing simply by the cost. I think The Exile could actually see play if he is toned down in his base stats. That would lower his cost to playability. EDIT: I suggested a change in his theme due to his Deep Wounds + Disease Breath is utterly random. I intentionally compared the themes of Thirion and Icesnap too because they are meta-playable and are being played. As opposed to The Exile who never saw play. Even though if he is costed nicely at 100ish with great stats, what I proposed was to: 1) tone down his stats so he is cheaper like Thirion 2) give him an SP-related theme to let him be splashable in a theme (vs magic amp, frost amp)
Yes because I believe the +10HP on Snap and +1SPD and +1MaxAP on Thirion for free is already a discount to what they get, so FB is excluded (although SP's and FS's more convinient because you would be able to deploy more despite less stats) But what about the thematic change? Deep wounds + Disease Breath + Regen3 (without scale armor, tough, or anything) is just too random yknow
Could you imagine if devs dropped Icesnap's HP down to 46 with no cost consideration whatsoever, and called it even-stephen, "because faction bonus?"
The Exile is actually pretty good with the witchdoctors. Ive been running a deck with 2 of each for a few days. I think he just needs a price tweak. Maybe 95 nora? He doesn't need shred defense when he has Deep Wounds. Deep Wounds on a ranged champ with alt damage ridiculous.
exactly. I feel deep wounds is way more efficient on Witchdoctor than on Exile. I find my exile (named Nozdormu) to be creptblock oftentimes if not always, while my witchdoctors are killing things more easily. swiss army knife with Hex for LR, cackle for SR, and shiet like that. While the exile is often a trigger for deepwounds, and acts like a big tempo hit for me.
He becomes 78 nora when both witchdoctors are down and with the bonus. If there are no withdoctors he just needs more AP to get that extra attack in. Alacrity, Declare target, and Drive really do help alot. Running him with scavenger makes up for his expensive cost too. But yeah. His priced should be dropped 10 nora.
Hm. 78 nora is dandy. I shall try him out w the recently praised bulwark. will post results. Though deep wounds is so limited in our faction while freezing aura is an abundance in ST...
Freezing aura doesnt work on ST champs. Your Parastrike idea is interesting but it wouldnt work on unstoppable units. Deep Wounds is simply better and works on all units. I also dont like how expensive hyaenids are because of dogpile. It should be removed. Only the executioner benefits from it.
Dogpile just shouldn't cost so much. It's WAY overcosted. 6 nora for +1/+2/+3/etc. damage, or maybe more in the best-case scenarios? Stat Bonus: Damage 3 costs 6 nora... for permanent, unconditional +3 DMG on every attack, not just basic attacks. Dogpile is costed as if it's given that you will have a handful of Dogpile units nearby, always. Clearly, that is NOT the case, most of the time. Abilities shouldn't be costed to compensate for potential awesomeness. They should be costed with consideration for an "average" scenario.
IMHO, Dogpile is not over-costed. Currently it acts like a global Encouraged for anyone who has it. With Rabid, Jolt, Poison and Dogpile Nids do a rather excessive amount of dmg per turn.
So are some abilities being costed for their synergy and others being costed for their "stand-alone" play value? I don't like that scenario, if so, but it sure seems to be the case. Dogpile on a unit by itself is almost useless. Two units? Roughly as useful at Sunder, but not as much. 3? Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Awesomesauce, indeed. But just a heads-up... you didn't pay 6 nora for Dogpile to be useful. You paid 18. I am NOT saying Dogpile should be costed as though it wasn't a synergy-driven ability. I'm saying it shouldn't be costed as though it -- overall -- is as useful as Fury or simply having +3 damage. I don't think it is as useful, and it's nowhere near as flexible. Dogpile could cost less, is what I'm saying... 4/5 nora, and I'd be happy. Knowing that all of the Pile Nids are 6 nora more expensive simply to enable their theme... I don't like it, but maybe I'm way off base.
No thats right allyor. Why would: Encouraged 4 nora Dogpile 6 nora Sunder 8 nora Encouraged allows you to have a global pseudo-dmg++ whereas Dogpile needs you to focus on one champ, whereas sometimes thats positioning suicide.... Its way off-base to compare Dogpile as a pseudo encouraged. Not global AT ALL. Sunder gives -2 def which is practically 2 stacks of dogpile, and also focuses on one champ. Now this is comparable.
Dogpile is also a stat debuff that can be toyed with to create other combos. It is not that I am saying I don't see your side of the story. However your talking about an ability that effects 1 faction that already has a huge nora advantage. Giving it -2 nora even to be on par with Encouraged is redundant. I am sure the ability was costed with that in mind. @allyorbase
So if you play Hyaenids you basically do not have your faction bonus because its nullified by purposely overcosting Dogpile? Thats...rather unfair. I'd rather have lower-costed Dogpile and get ST's FF +10HP bonus. Don't take faction bonuses into account other than design... mixing your rationals by basing it to faction bonus wouldn't be fair at all. If that's the case, then ST shouldn't get any Commander/Boost abilities because they already have +10HP bonus. And KF shouldn't have any APgen in the form of Reverie because they already have +1SPD anyways. The combos that you might meant: Death Sentence + DoTs = melee range, not exactly a dandy ability on a squishy champ with 6SPD. At most its a1:1 trade where Executioner dies the next turn. Sustain: Unstoppable + Serf to the Djinn = peaks dew is subpar at best
Pox is constantly evolving. To say that those are the only combos would be denying the future. As for the previous comment. I never said it was fair. However if that is the cost of keeping the faction bonuses to help make it unique then I am alright with that. Of course I would be delighted to see it be costed properly. I am content with how it currently is because playing pox constantly worrying about things would be detrimental to me. However. The reason why I relate Dogpile to Encourage is because the current way to kill things is to try to 1 round them. As even a champ with 1hp still does as much dmg as the same champ with full hp. What are you going to use champs that are under the benefits of Encouraged for? Your generally to take out the champs you deemed needed to die for that round. Dogpile is indirectly the same thing, with the added benefit of being able to manipulate the debuffs to do more damage. Solution: Encouraged 6 nora, Dogpile 4. Wait. Dogpile is a semi global effect with a manipulable after effect. Encouraged Back to 4, Dogpile back to 6. I am not saying that changing it would be bad, I am just saying on the long list of thing that do need to. This would be on the lower half. Is it bad, somewhat. Is it enough to make them broken, no. Rend 5 cost the same as Poison 5. Even though Rend does Physical which is wildly resisted and Poison also debuffs defense. Poison 5 and Scour 5, do the same things. However Poison is more wildly resisted than Acid dmg. P.S. I honestly do believe similar to you and ally.However for the sake of continuing the argument and trying to point of flaws or beneficial points that are not immediately obvious I am playing the Devil's Advocate. Let us continue the debate to bring forth ideals and the future of pox. XD
Pretty sure Master Axeman is cheaper than a majority of the hyaenids and can 1v1 all of them. Lol have fun playing the devils advocate, but dogpile needs to be removed from the game. Its 6 nora too much and boring.
Illustration as to how its mind-boggling that Encouraged is cheaper than Dogpile: 1. Let's assume a small map, say FW map. Because on larger maps with multiple fonts, ofc Encouraged is better. 2. You're using Nids, I'm using meta SP with Primal + Moga Cannon (both encouraged). 3. By mid game, we both have 5 champs Me: 4. One of which, I placed a Kanen Tracker to deny your font. 1 Primal, 2 Moga Cannon, 2 Voil Sorcerer is on my own font. You: 5. Your nid army (1 Breaker, 1 Mundungu, 1 Headshrinker, 2 Spearman) is spread out near your shrine, ready to powerturn my own font, in-range to harass my champs, and just realizing that I gibbed your font using a stealth champ. 6. You proceed in detecting my Tracker instantly, and one-turn it using 3 of your ranged Nids: 1 Breaker, 1 Mundungu, 1 Headshrinker. Kanen Tracker is dead after 3 Dogpile stacks and dies due to DOT. Now its 4v5. 7. Both your Spearman now have 9DMG and +0DMG from Dogpile and can proceed harassing my 0DEF Voil Sorcerer for 19 DMG in total (1hit/spearman, while the last spearman gets +1DMG from Dogpile) Me: 8. I hit one of your spearman with 2 Voil Sorcerers and 1 Moga Cannon. This adds up +3DMG. 9. Now Primal can hit your spearman to kill it, and the last Moga Cannon gets a total of +4DMG and I can direct this damage to any champ I want, regardless where he is. So what is this 1) magical Manipulable After Effect you're talking about in the future? Rover: Judgment? Another Death Sentence? So for now, Nids is an incomplete racial theme with an overcosted sandbag ability, justifiable because faction bonus? And you're content with that...? Can I also state that there are possible manipulable after effects of Encouraged in the form of Cyclops Primal getting Stone Bomb, or Starlight Sylph getting Magical Bomb to utilize that global +DMG in an AoE sense? I don't want to deny Pox's future, so I think both might get these and thus, benefiting from more +DMG in Encouraged. From what I can see here, 2) Encouraged is global, Dogpile is semi global (more like single-target) = in certain situations, Dogpile doesn't even grant an equal damage to Encouraged as per the case study I provided above, which after trying both meta and Nids, is a commonly found situation. And yet Dogpile should...still..cost more? While you're content by sandbagging the racial theme so that you may rejoice with your own faction's bonuses (to keep it unique... or overpowered?), you have to think about the players that do play Nids. Are they also content with having sandbagged abilities and practically having no faction bonus? And so, you agree that its overcosted right? Its a sandbag ability as of now.
