The FS discussion - My thoughts and why there is an underlying problem.

So people have been complaining about FS a lot, seemingly mostly since I started the free wins train. I've played FS for about two weeks now, playing a lot of games every day. I should do the math, but I'm pretty sure I've maintained a +90% winrate (even while FQing over half of my games, offering it every time the exp difference exeeds 300). I've watched people argue about it for a bit, my issue with the whole rabble going on is that nobody seems to be focussing on the right things. I will post the bg that I have been using, in case people don't know what meta FS runes or what I'm talking about. I believe that this is currently the strongest FS bg, give or take a few runes. Harbs and whatnot.



People seem to have been complaining a lot about the powerlevel of some FS champs and hippos. Granted, the powerlevel of some FS champs is really high. They are really efficient and the FS meta has a diverse toolset to deal with a lot of things. Toad, Angel and Rook seem to be the most complained about. And true, these are the top level of efficiency. However I don't think that this is what makes FS so crazy good. Every faction has a few champs that are absolutely bonkers. These few champs are impactful, but not to the standard that they can elevate one faction that much. Hippos then? Truly, Hippo Stampede is incredibly potent. In my honest opinion, it needs to be looked at. The spot damage is insane, mindblowing even. But can these 4 runes, even paired with great other runes dominate to this level?

Yes and no. Here is what I think makes FS so powerful and why FS is so good in almost every matchup. It's incredibly consistent. Key word here. FS doesn't have bad matchups. Perhaps slightly unfavorable, but nothing you can't manage. Even with a bad map and/or draws, you're never out of the game. Even though not the best, FS can play any style to adapt to the opponent and be okay. There are a couple of reasons for this, which I will now list.

1. The faction bonus. There, I said it. 6 nora every round is amazing. It means that even when you're a font down, it doesn't really matter. You can transfigure and be alright in the nora department (this also due to marsh singer 6 on the avatar). Don't look at the bonus like "oh after 10 rounds you get a free champ". No. It means that every round I can spend 6 more nora on my runes than you. It may not seem much, but I can pump out that stronger champ. I can keep deploying when you're just a little short on nora, causing you to lose tempo and I gain the early game advantage. 6 nora per turn is just never bad or irrelevant. A lot of other bonusses require certain actions to happen on the board in order to make use of the bonus (SL and ST need to be attacked/damage, SP needs to deploy, FW needs to die, UD needs to attack, IS needs to get damage by spells, KF needs to move to some extend but is better on it's own as well). FS doesn't need to do anything to make use of the bonus. In ever situation in the game, at any given time, you are making use of your bonus. The bonus is consistent.
2. The allround power of the FS champset. What I mean this is that the FS champset has tools to deal with nearly anything. You have summon counters, tanks, sustain, cc, magic damage, alternate damage, noragen, stealth (yeah, stealth is that good), crow control, a ton of non basic attack damage to bypass defensive mechanisms, on deploy deploy threat damage, etc. It only really lacks straight up detection, but has a lot of alternate ways of destealthing champs. (conveniently with a spot detection equip as well) Point is, you can not throw anything at these 15 champs and be confident that they're not going to be able to deal with it. Some champs can be troublesome, but nothing you're going to field is going to rampage on it's own. No tactic is going to be so powerful that it nets you a big enough advantage that you can just ride home. These champs always manage to stay in the game and be annoying at every possible instance.
3. The spell-, relic- and equipset and the power of board control. Everyone knows hippos are great. They're around 30 spot damage, depending on the circumstances, and while they have a little RNG factor to them, because of the setup you generally never miss an attack, unless terrain or other champs engaged on spawn stop you. A lot of my games were decided in the first few turns, when 1 or 2 attack plus hippos granted me the kill, a noraglobe and the midfont. From there on it's just about playing it out and winning the game. But hippos aren't the sole problem. When I started putting this bg together I was recommended to only run 1 drown by Taylor and Flyinfinn, arguably the top FS players. However, I was set on running two and I have never regretted it for one second. I would run 3 if I could. Moog and monsoon combined means that I can take out almost any champ at any given time. Any key champ that you're trying to keep safe, that one guy that keeps your theme or strategy together, that one champ that's about to go crazy, the guy who you spend a lot of nora on buffing up, you name it. I'll drag click remove it from the board. Sure it's 75 nora + setup, but going even in nora is not my intention. I want to gain board control, suddenly having your champ taken away is a huge hit. All of a sudden all the time you spend getting that champ in place, the nora you possible invested in him is gone. I gain immense board control. I have used monsoon + double drown in more games than I dare to admit. Even using drown on really cheap champs. Board control is that important. It almost always means that I'll be pressuring you immensely and you'll have to start giving up ground. Board control can not be accuratly measured, aside from having more fonts giving you more nora. But it is so much more than that. Having board control means that you dictate the flow and the direction of the game. You decide what happens next, you're in charge. Board control is so overlooked a lot of times, but it is the reason why gimp runes will always be great. The swaps, drowns, hippos, gale, pull, etc of this game are incredibly potent to gain board control in a well coordinated round. Now that's it, right? Not even close. Let's talk about Foulest Mushroom. While it doesn't give the huge board control hippos or drown do, it's impact on use + continued effects are incredible for your board control. 6+2 damage on deploy. -1 defense. Vulnerability poison. Remember when tunderhead totem had aura 3 and did 20 damage + 2 from the -2 defense? That's what this guy facilitates now. You slap it down and let your poison elemental and/or toad go crazy. Even kartch with his poison dot. One rounding champs with a relic that has 25 hp, a poison cloud and give a 6 range vulnerability. It tanks, facilitates one rounding greatly and remains on the board until you kill those 25 hps and has some crow control to boot. If you have to melee it, you take 4+4+2+1 damage just to get in range of it. These three runes: hippos, drown and mushroom facilitate one rounding so well it's scary. Now what does this mean? First of all, it means that you're going to win almost every 1v1 in the game. Every fontbattle can be won because you can remove that champ, forcing your opponent to send more champs. Every early game skirmish can be over in an instant. Every key champ is in danger of just straight up being removed from the board. The other spells in the set are there to cover your other bases. Control, spell damage etc. The obvious lack of AoE in FS does hurt, but isn't the end of the world. Everything is about swiftly and decisively taking care of champs. That is the ultimate consistency in this game. Being able to take care of nearly anything. There are tiny flaws in this spellset, champs that tank hippos and are immune to drown. Preferably with resist or immunity poison. However this list is small, and the diverse FS champ set we talked about is still greatly skilled at dealing with anything.

Conclusions and thoughts going forward:
Consistency is the reason FS does so well and it is not because of one or two runes. FS has a history of getting a diverse and interesting toolset in their champs and non-champ runes, allowing them to deal with a lot of problems effectively. Some of the FS runes need to be looked at from a balance standpoint, but I'll leave that for other threads. I didn't make this thread to argue about balance. I made it to hopefully provide insight on why I think FS is so great, without crying nerf on a bunch of runes and not looking at the underlying problems. It's not just these runes, historically FS has always been good. It has always had a lot of tools. Nerfing a few runes does not adress FS's consistency. You see this in other factions as well. ST and UD have been on top of the food chain for years on end now, because their diverse spellset and some core champions will fit in any meta, will be able to deal with any direction the game goes. Adaptation is survival, consistency is key. A faction doesn't become overpowered because it can stomp you once or twice with good draws or a good map. It becomes overpowered when it repeatedly does it regardless of the circumstances and has seemingly no great flaws to exploit.


TLDR FS has few real weaknesses while it's strengths are hard to shut down and are consistently making trouble. Nerfing the few perceived "overpowered" runes might not change this.


Note: I applaud you if you read all of it. I originally had written even more, but I had to start cutting here and there to keep it somewhat... short. It's a huge wall of text, but I hope it conveys my thoughts about the FS situation well, as I believe that many people are not looking at it correctly.

 

Oh god, you used that horrid blue text. Just thought I should say that as I finish reading this. Looks to be well written so far.

Edit: Was a good read mate. I agree.

 

True, I like blue but it's a bit obnoxious. Changed to green for visibility.

 

Fs doesn't have much weakness which one of the reasons they should romove some of the countees to make it fair to the other factions do you agree bur ?

 

English, please!

 

my bad

the issue pointed by burn is that fs is very consistant so my question to burn is to nerf fs and make it less consistent so that it will be o the same level of the other factions
this can be done by tweaking the number of counters fs have this is the exact same reason why FW was strong during SOE because FW could conter pretty much everything nora gen through UT and ranging surge units making it impossiblely hard to win

 

It's almost as if I made a conclusions paragraph and TLDR answering this exact question.

 

I completely agree to everything here, great work!

Phase 1 is a go, awaiting phase 2... VIVA LA RESISTANCE!

 

ok then what suggestions do you have to adress this i'm curious

 

Great thread.
~ Fs enthusiasts

i did read it all, i enjoy your view on fs.

Can i add that fs mirror match-up is hard.

 

I have wanted to say this for a long while now.. FS used to typically have mediocre stats, and being heavily reliant on their mobile range, and dirty tricks to succeed. (The Bonus typically paid for that key spell or two that made your combo spectacular.) Boghopper Spitter, Shaman, and Kartch all used to be staples in what ever bg you made. Now-a-days your lucky if you see Kartch deployed before the game is over. Synergy is what makes FS strong, not the versatility of its champs, and how efficient their stat line up is. It has gotten away from that point. As so elegantly pointed out by Burns discussion. I miss the under handed ticks that FS could pull off.

 

As most mirrons, it's incredibly matchup and draw dependant. Really obnoxious.

 

Well said.

 

well players complained about fs tricks. such as slam and poison cloud. trap placement with salaman hunter etc... and it was nerfed. heavily. so medicore stats needed to be changed.

 

Uhm, it's not luck to spot auto-includes.

 

Never said he wasn't an auto-include. Wasn't saying he is bad, either. I just rarely see him deployed instead of Angels, Paladins, Anurans, and Rooks anymore. The game has either been decided, or is over by the time he sees play if he is even deployed. Efficiency, and versatility have taken charge of synergy.

Edited my previous post to suggest this statement more. Sorry for the misunderstood meaning. I have been trying to reel back my moments. As some has pointed out. I talk unnecessarily too much to make a simple point.

Added. "deployed before the game is over. Synergy is what makes FS strong, not the versatility of its champs, and how efficient their stat line up is. It has gotten away from that point. As so elegantly pointed out by Burns discussion. "

 

Paladins? Also anurans are Boghopper Toads now.

And I disagree, kartch is incredibly potent, especially early game. I always drop him early if I can, ranged poison 5 with high mobility, sustain and tanky stats are not to be underestimated. He's pretty baller in the early game, even in mid to late game always worth his cost.

 

Boghopper Paladin. Run up to someone Drown, then have a tank where you want him. Seen it done hundreds of times. No need to waste nora on a spell to deploy water, and you have water gen for an Undertow to 1 round something else.

Meh. They will for ever be Anurans. Needless name changes....

As for you Kartch comment. I can only state what I have seen. Haven't been in the higher echelons of play lately. Disrgard my previous statement for Kartch then. Thank you for your insight.

 

I can't even tell you the last time I saw paladin, must have been years.

While he's not bad, he's tanky and waterfront requires your opponent to stay on the water. He also doesn't add anything to the game aside from the tanking part. I'd give him a slot in a boghopper bg for protective, but 8 damage tanks aren't going anywhere in this meta. If he's not a giant roadblock or does some damage too, running a tank for the sake of tanking doesn't really work anymore. The opponent can just ignore him.

Myx Sandsnipe, never forget.

 

Wow, this wall of text is so accurate. Good job 10/10
i understand everything, and if i understand everything everyone could