So. Despite all the nay-saying, moaning and general *****ing some members of the community have been dumping on the faction in general in regard to the state of a post-FF bonus KF some themes, already generally lacking in the current Meta, are going to absolutely tank. Arguing, as I do, that at the moment Elves/KF Meta/Variation of Elves, are the only true Limited standard themes it's fair to say that with a weakened bonus' some of the themes hovering outside true LL play, Garu/Archers/Fae notably, are going to drop. Therefore in this thread I'd like to propose we list the various themes that are not currently playable, are *Just* playable and those that present an actual threat and evaluate, on a personal level, how the loss of speed will impact specific themes and, hopefully, beyond that speak about what changes need to be made within certain themes to bring them upto meta-viable play. Anyone else think this could be a good idea? Also at a request of @Dagda and @IMAGIRL could you please help keep the conversation centered on the discussion of themes POST bonus, as opposed to *****ing about the bonus' change. I'll post the themes below and add comments as the thread continues.
Dont forget non-racial themes, like magic amp, illusions etc. Angels could be a theme in kf too maybe?
Ill comment on Garu. Garu is definately unplayable already at present, so after nerf it will be impossible to use fore sure. All 5 or 6 speed 1 range melee champs with no defense and the main guys nerfed in revamp in non-logical way to make the dissapear in rare shadows: dugon, kodiak, gdm, berserker. Theme dead.
He was saying it would mostly disappear, or at least I think that's what he was trying to say. Hard to really pull it apart. Plus it's Polltroy. He goes over the top with his complaining in order to try to get what he wants which isn't as far as what he's complaining about.
Garu are not unplayable, when I was playing regularly a week or so back I was happily running Garu in LL as was, and still is, Covell. Beyond that I can imagine, as currently Garu are a strange pseudo-SL theme within KF concentrating as they do on power turns and meaty champions, with the loss of +1spd Garu will begin to suffer more so than they did during the revamp due to the fact that they'll literally function as SL within KF without SL's innate tankiness which keeps the SL champions in decent shape to power-turn as well as take the return hits. Some solutions for this could be the re-inclusion of Battle Leader in theme for global healing and steadily increasing threat and perhaps the reintroduction of more widely available Hibernation to allow some more varied tactical play than the simple "Wait, Build-Up, Warcry/Horn of Order" Combo's they currently run on. Also in particular both Dugon and Kodiak remain decent on their own merits and Dugon in particular is very good within Garu. Though I would like to see "Some" form of decent range in Garu beyond vaguely throwing Den-Mothers into combat to trigger Bestow so you can grab Surge: Enemy on your Shamans/Throwers.
Here's a rundown on the speeds of Treefolk: 4 Speed: K’thun (and Wandering) Oaken Defender (and Lumbering) 5 Speed: Dryad Deadwood Willowind Tanglefoot Sapling Launcher (and Lumbering) Lifegiver (and Lumbering) Patriarch (and Lethargic and +16 Nora) Vinecreeper (and wrong faction) 6 Speed: Treecaller Oakthumper Fireoak (Stationary/Teleport) Bogwood (Wrong Faction) Dragonbark (Can’t move for 3 rounds) Grappler (+16 Nora) 7 Speed: Wood Elemental (risk factor) I'm only seeing 2 viable 6 speed and 1 viable 7 speed. Map alterations may change how much speed is needed in a deck, but the theme's low base speed and number of gimped 6 speed champs bear watching.
Perchance I am too daft, but how can we analyze KF themes without knowing the bonus or the champ adjustments??
At the moment we know that: A) We're losing the +1SPD and B) The main contendor is a pseudo-init. At the very least we can examine themes lacking (A) and see they hold up and then, as a theoretical argument, examine themes gaining (B).
The issue we're immediately going to see with Treefolk is that without the free Spd bonus suddenly the majority of tree's become massive gimped and with the compounding issue that many of the Treefolk have nora reducing abilities that, if we were to remove, would make the champions massively expensive, we're left with an absolutely slow moving theme already butchered by recent nerfs. Treefolk are going to be hard man.
Maybe the garu and trees could be placed together into a theme where they feed off each other? I don't thing that relying on each other like g'hern and moga would fit, but perhaps trees that are protective of garu, garu that grant anti-lumbering/mobility specifically for plants/trees. It could solve both the range and speed issues, and these races always seemed to me to be the more "natural" kf races. It would be neat to see them work together.
Well there's already Wizard/Treefolk into Devotee symbiosis ongoing so perhaps not. Though you "Could" make the argument for Centaur/Garu I would personally like to see the Barbarian theme built upon that was established, and then removed, with Skirmisher/Savage/Sarghavian.
I'm not a fan of mixing these two. If the issue with Garu is that there are few good ranged/alt damage choices, then trees won't help them much in that respect. If anything, Trees and Faeries have the most crossover potential. Imagine: High HP Trees tanking with low HP Fae buzzing around them Foment for both Fae and Saplings Grant: Butterfly Wings for anti-lumbering or offensive use Make a Windstriker Fae to go with Oakthumper And so forth... Another really big missed opportunity for crossover synergy was Perfected Runner not being a tree. The theme revolves around sacrificing trees. What race should we make it's suicide unit? Elf... I wonder if we could get him changed into a normal champ and have a new suicide tree instead...
Conclave warden and sprite will feel the -1 speed the most in fae sitting at 5. To be honest, i'd say fae will probably notice the -1 speed the least out of every theme as they are mostly 6/7 speed already. I have a question that's probably been asked/answered already but there's so many different threads about the bonus change I can't be bothered to scan through. As +1 speed is generally costed at 8 nora, i think that's what has been said right? Do the majority of KF champs all cost approximately 8 nora more than they should because the free speed is coming? Or maybe a lesser amount say 5 or 6 nora? I wonder if the nerf will come with a lot of compensation, for the things that will suffer... Or if it's just going to be a nerf with nothing going forward? It's obvious people are unhappy playing against KF, and that it's going to get nerfed. I am kind of interested to see if once the speedy elves are off the scene, what's going to be the next topic of "omg nerf pls"
Well the argument is that no faction comes pre-nerfed and so the +1spd was added irrelevant of the champions cost. So KF could run about with a reasonable number of cheaper 7spd's and 6spd's than another factions. Beyond that Sok has noted he wants to look at some IS/ST champions who need an ap boost following the Arctic/IS Font change, I'm sure KF will be getting similar treatment with it's problem champions.
