So if this has been discussed elsewhere I'm sorry for having missed it. I see a lot of rage about how certain things are OP and unbalanced and all that, particularly what comes to mind is trees. The counter argument from the greens was that overall trees weren't winning that much but that it was really OP when handled by a skilled player like @TinyDragon. So my question is, how representative is the meta balance that we're suggesting to greens of what new players will be dealing with as the game expands its player base via Steam? Sure some strategies will be OP in top level play but also consider how effective they are when they aren't played by a pro. There may be some instinct to write off the low level meta as unimportant but the fact is that that meta represents much of the multiplayer experience for newer and to some extent intermediate players (like myself). Just some food for thought.
That depends on how you define "pro". There are a lot of mediocre players playing powerful decks in the top100.
Food to be saved for another time. The playerbase isn't currently large enough to worry about this, however valid it might be. A rare league player is very likely to play against a "pro" at any time, especially with the amount of que dodging that occurs. Edit: After rereading I noticed I skipped over the part where you mention this problem in the context of the steam release. On second thought, whether or not this subject should be dealt with now or sometime in the future is really dependent on when the steam release occurs. It doesn't hurt to prepare in advance but the dev team, being as small as it is, probably has a lot of more conspicuous problems to deal with. Also, I'm assuming that whatever Gedden is doing with plans for steam release has accounted for this and that this is shown in its application to past balance patches (see trees, for example).
To be saved for another time indeed. Just wanted to get the thought out there. I think that it's an important dimension to consider in balance thoughts since most of the players who are active on the forums are at least close to top level of play (I imagine).
The problem is that factions are only made to directly counter 1 other. FS - SP Nora counters nora. UD - KF Range and Melee battle it out. FW - ST Lower death timer combats a higher health. DMZ counters spells. IS - SL Anti Spell vs Anti Attack. Plenty of healing and indirect boost on both side. Aside from something like IS vs IS were it becomes pure skill. Chaos and unbalanced Bane Shift will naturally ensue when you play outside of these boundaries. THAT IS NORMAL. That is the original intentions. I honestly like this playstyle.
Been playing since just after the ST expansion. This is how the game has been. Until SOE just gave every faction everything. Gedden is trying to get it back to that earlier point. Were each faction is independent with their own thing that makes them unique. If other people don't like it. They may not like the intended future that is coming.
I don't think that you should be able to so simply describe the relationships between factions. Not that I don't agree that UD has lots of anti-range and is therefore designed to counter KF but your analysis doesn't take into account how UDs kit interacts with SPs kit of FSs kit. I think that the reality is (and should be) more nuanced than that. I agree that each faction should have a strong identity but to simplify the meta to a game of rock-paper-scissors isn't the way to make a healthy meta I don't think. The objective should be a grayscale version of that where you might have a positive matchup but it shouldn't be a straight out counter. As a sidenote, what does this have to do with my thread? I'm talking about differences between high and low level meta play, these interactions between factions should exist in both.
How they interact is of a secondary note. Originally there were only 4 factions. Then 2 more were thrown on at the last minute, then 2 more years later. Of course there is going to be issues. However, complete balance is a mythical thing to hope for. I am not saying it shouldn't be in consideration, but it should not be the primary focus of the balance. Each faction needs to get back to their roots, say 3 things that make each faction unique. If each faction isn't unique. Then we essentially have 1 faction... Where the only difference is rune art and faction bonus. You thoughts about how UD's kit interacts with SP and FS is not wrong or even in correct. But for everything to be perfectly balanced. Then, if KF has a 8-9 15 dmg ranged champ. Then EVERY faction needs to have it. That is just not going to happen. If each faction has something that makes them perfectly unique then there are going to be issues. However they are more along the lines of strategy issues, not balance issues. I coined a term with a friend of mine. I forget the name but it was essential. "Perfectly Imbalanced." Where even though not everything is balanced for everyone. Strategies, combos and other things when people realize them will tie into and make something. Perfectly Imbalanced. I may be romanticizing the pre-SOE era. However, Perfectly Imbalanced, seems to the best way I can say it.
I agree that perfect balance is impossible but that doesn't mean that we ("we" meaning DOG I suppose) shouldn't strive for it. Part of the problem is a matter of manpower on DOG's side. They're working on that problem and they're doing the best they can with what they got. I think that the balance for PoxNora would be achieved through a state of constantly shifting buffs and nerfs. This has the benefit of creating a more dynamic meta and creating some semblance of balance. The meta will never truly be balanced (because that's impossible) but things should only be out of whack in a specific fashion for a short period of time. Then the next patch will react to that out of whack meta, nerf the OP and buff the UP, thusly revealing a new set of OP and UP strategies/runes and so the cycle repeats. I don't know if this is similar or identical to the "Perfectly Imbalanced" thing you were mentioning but that's my 2 cents. (which are admittedly biased by years of playing MtG standard which I think is a fantastic system).
Maybe this is a bit off topic, but i think it was good before when the packs were divided in the faction groups (protectorate etc). This way, new players choose one faction and started to collect runes for that faction. And then after months of play, maybe he wanted to try another faction, so it meant he naturally had 3 other to choose from with many runes available. Even when there were just hundreds of runes available, not thousands, this division was needed to make it easier for new players to collect runes. This would be even more needed now. Maybe even core packs that contain just 1 or 2 factions could help new players to get started more easy.
