People always mention how shitty the balance is, so i'm curious. What would a "balanced" Poxnora look like? I want specific examples/constructive posts from those of you think this state of balance in Poxnora is bad.
Baby don't nerf me Don't nerf me No more That is what I was expecting after reading the thread title... I think the game is "balanced" when I don't have the "I'm screwed no matter what I do" feeling when playing a game. Which is kind of the case right now, usually. (Unless my opponent happens to be good, then balance suddenly goes out of the window.)
everyone has to play decks that contain 15 ambling fronds and 15 time slips, only then we will achieve a truely balanced poxnora that is purely skill based
Since people are being trollish I will try to answer with my own feelings regarding it: For me, balance is all about following standard format/formulas for things, sticking to it and developing around that. So, you would have standard formulas for costs, cooldown on runes, price on abilities, etc. This is something I think should be aimed at and Pox is already doing that. Although, I really feel this could be passed on to spells/equips/relics as well. Example: spell with AoE 4, doing 10 damage? 40 nora. Gives dot? +5. Gives other effects? +5. Relics: 20 nora (because it can contest). 1 effect? + 5. 2 effects? +10. Equips: 25 nora with 1 effect. +5 with 2 effects. And so on. DoG did manage to cut down the randomness when they took over the game, buy capping the number of abilities on champions and creating a formula for stats and whatnot. This was good. Also, even though the abilities arent all priced correctly, its a continuous effort and we will probably hit a place where things are more or less in the perfect spot. However, more and more I feel these things are being left out or created to mitigate that. For example: Fairy Flight or whatever. It was created specifically to cheat the costing system, and there are many more examples like that. Manual reductions (or whatever it is called) also do that. Some summons having upgrades and others dont also do that. I could go on with equips/relics/spells, but Im out of time. But pede, how do you balance the game without making it boring or too standard? Well, that's the thing, I don't think it would make the game boring at all. You already have different races, different factions bonus, different font abilities, different non spell equips, people can use slits, etc. etc. etc. "Oh, but if we stick too much to the formula some things will probably be shoeboxed right out of the gate"? This shouldnt be a problem, there are always going to be over the top runes and shoeboxed ones. But yeah, this is my view and Im not trying to convince anyone to share it.
Pede always had some sound Bane Shift to say but to often the context before his posts follow this trollish manor displayed here.
While I agree with Pede, I just would like to point out that to correctly price abilities we most likely should move out from a scenario in which the ability costs is fixed by abilities and go to a scenario in which, for example, tough would have a mobile price tag considering all synergies, base HP, Def, other abilities. Pricing by formulas without price tagging synergies is misleading, at least, and synergy-filled runes will mostly keep being OP in this scenario for the whole you get is more valuable than the parts you pay for. Edit: Pede's countryman also!
Considering the nature of the game, runes pretty much has to be priced on an individual basis. Formulas can give us a good idea of the ballpark and using them as a guide makes sense and is what is done, but trying to account for all synergies in a formula just doesn't work (in theory it could be done, but such a formula would be cost prohibitive to develop, it's similar to trying to model the weather). We also remember what happened right after the DOG revamp when everything was almost 100% formulated - there were so much unplayable stuff (not just due to the formula, but in large part). This is because runes aren't just worth the sum of their parts. I love things like Fairy Flight because rather than "cheating the cost system" it actually provides a fundamental feeling to the way the Fae plays and are different than other champions. They don't all end up doing this, but Fairy Flight is a specific example of the kind of thing I think Pox needs more of - a simple but defining mechanic that is relevant to the gameplay while unifying a theme. Such abilities CAN be miscoted, and Fairy Flight did get a cost increase of +2 recently to get to its current +3. Summons having upgrades is being fixed, but has to be done individually. It's an unintentional consequence of the DOG revamp where they got upgrades when the upgrade system changed. It's a plague and annoys me But I want to fix them correctly, which means making alternative versions of all summons so they spawn a different version that doesn't have upgrades (rather than removing upgrades on deploy). This way, it doesn't happen again no matter what changes. In general, non-champion runes costed in the manner described would simply result in relics, for example, only having strong effects (because who wants to deploy a relic with 3 weak effects for 35 nora when you get a relic with 1 strong effect for 25 nora). So I disagree with 5 nora/effect as it ignores the scale and value of the effects in question. Meanwhile, spells are incredibly difficult to evaluate in this formulaic manner due to their diverse effects. So the way it is done now is "is the package worth the effects?" and "is it appropriately costed compared to other existing PLAYABLE options?" because anything else makes too many assumptions.
Balance for you players, from what I have seen, is such a shallow idea that it seems you are missing the bigger picture of what influences balance. Balance and a lack of balance is driven by progress. Balance exists in a vacuum only, which is why players like @Pedeguerra ask for simple ideas that "seem" to bring about balance but does not. Progress effects balance. If DOG did not put out any new themes or develop existing ones for a year, they might achieve the "balance in a vacuum" ideal you are all shooting for. But DOG makes money from progress; so when themes are developed and new themes come up, the game becomes imbalanced. This is the nature of this game.
