What is the point of giving the Damage Shields to those ranged champions?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ghklf, May 21, 2015.

  1. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    Some make a bit sence for their Acolyte ability.

    Some r completely non-sence, for example Stitched Magearm.

    Why do u think we need them on ranged champions?
  2. ChiaoLung

    ChiaoLung I need me some PIE!

    It gives them a small amount of protection from melee. It makes a lot more sense than an aura. Why do you think it doesn't make sense?
    Ohmin and Leadrz like this.
  3. Anotherblackman

    Anotherblackman I need me some PIE!

    because from a powercreep stance, unless something is dealing 12 damage in melee attacks in return for 5 damage a hit, its just extra cost for nothing
    TheBulwark and SaintKiwi like this.
  4. ChiaoLung

    ChiaoLung I need me some PIE!

    There's another reason then. It acts as a small sandbag to a ranged champ which tend to be the most powerful as they can hit more things without having to move as much.
  5. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    Since they r ranged champion, thoes damage shields will less likely make use.

    Damage shields on ranged champions cost nora but does little, and some even occupy one upgrade line.
  6. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    If this is the reason then I have to say the way they do balancing is terrible.
  7. Leadrz

    Leadrz I need me some PIE!

    You are being workdown by a ranged unit, it gets you to 4hp.
    You engage, go to attack and see damage:shield.
    Do you A attack the ranged and die or B engage to keep it occupied while backup can arrive.(leaving it unhurt because it would kill you)

    Heres a statement for people:
    Pox Nora is a diverse game, Runes will be different, Runes will have their own style, Unless outrageously bad that is not a problem.
  8. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    Did not get it.
  9. NiGhtMaRiK

    NiGhtMaRiK I need me some PIE!

    Theres sand in that Bag!
  10. Markus422

    Markus422 I need me some PIE!

    Here's the thing. No good melee champ cares about taking 6 dmg.
  11. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    Beater may not, tank does.
  12. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    It makes perfect sense to me. A damage shield will atleast help the ranged champion defend it incase it gets engaged. Also it helps make melee champs think twice about attacking. Most damage shields do 6 damage and its damage that doesnt get lowered by defense. Most range champions average heal are somewhere within 35 to 50 HP. Most melee champion's average ATK is 10. If we assume the ranged champion doesnt have DEF and the melee champ is beating down. The ranged champ. The ranged champ's shield will deal 18,24, or more damage.
  13. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    Damage Shield X is no more or less useful on Ranged champions than it is on Melee champions. It's usefulness is determined by what you're playing against. If you're up against Melee, Damage Shield is good, unless those Melee are so bad that your ranged units blow them away without it of course.
    Capitulator likes this.
  14. NiGhtMaRiK

    NiGhtMaRiK I need me some PIE!

    Don't understand the logic here.

    Dmg shield is an ability that rewards poor play.

    I know how defensive that may make people or how it stirs debate. However, what i mean is that it is an ability that is useful in an undesireable situation.

    You want to one round champs. You want to not get your champs injured. You (typically) do your best to minimize damage taken and helping your champs survive .
    If a melee unit engages a melee unit and did not kill the unit after engaging then next turn it is probable it will be attacked.
    You calculated for this and it's not an out of the norm scenario. You may even be comfortable with this Tank, Grunt, Beater taking this hit because you don't believe your opponent has the resources to finish him off
    or you are content with losing the unit.

    If your ranged unit is getting attacked by a melee unit than you most likely did not plan for that. Not saying that it is never the case where you did, but more often than not you want your ranged units far from harms way, especially melee.
    Melee often gets focused down before they can reach ranged units and there are melee units walling off the path to ranged units to protect them. This is a common scenario and battle strategy.
    Its fair to say that you did not plan for your ranged unit to take a hit from melee, much less more than one attack.
    This often occurs by some unforseen event. EG: Relocation, AP gen, Spot removal, stealth, etc..

    So to make use of your Dmg Shield is alot easier on melee than it is on ranged.
    It makes more sense and is more useful on grunts, beaters, and tanks.
    You don't want your low base hp, low def, heavy dmg, melee rogue unit to be taking hits. So dmg shield doesn't fit well there either.
    If theres a ranged unit that fits other roles that i mentioned than there is more argument for usefulness of the ability on them.
    A Range 2-5 unit with 50+ hp and sentinel and 2-4 def with a def steroid or healing....ok cool. I see dmg sheild being useful.

    Mage Arm use to have Calcify and Combo Drain. So you can make argument as to why Dmg shield on him is a remnant of that type of design.
    Makes more sense to have Dmg Shield on Merged who is tank. Hell, he could of been an expensive stitched pincushion wannabe.

    So to say that Dmg Shield isn't less effective or useful on a Ranged champ, imo is incorrect.
    To say that this is a sound design and is in no way a sandbag i think is bordering trolling.

    If it is a sandbag, you should call it what it is and not try to stand behind the notion that you designed it that way purposefully to help the champ be more apt to find its way into a BG and be useful.
    I honestly don't see why Arm has Aura either. I DONT WANT MY RANGED UNITS NEXT TO MELEE.

    Scrap both U paths and give him:

    U1: Combo Atk: Drain , Drain 2 (Default), Hex 3
    U2: Numerous (Default), Spell Resistance, Shielded (or Magic Eater from Base)

    Rng 2-5 . 9 dmg base, 51 hp, Escalation base (or S.swallower)
    Skeezick and ghklf like this.
  15. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    You're free to your opinion, of course, but the reality is that you can't rely on things going perfectly for you (or your opponent). The argument you're making, is that one-rounding is the norm (especially for ranged units) and that if you "allow" your ranged units to get engaged it's because of a mistake on your part. While that's often true, you cannot always account for all variables, especially in a game like this. There are multiple ways to provide AP, relocation, etc. from sources not visible to the board. Sometimes it's better to throw your ranged unit into a contesting font position acknowledging that it'll take hits (or even die), than to play the unit safer; just as sometimes you'll throw a Melee unit into the same position.

    In another, completely different game called League of Legends, there are champions with abilities that are only and purely useful upon their or their allies' demise. Yet several of them are considered to be quite good. This is because even if you aren't looking to die, even if you still generally strive for the best positioning possible, there are times when that simply isn't possible. And further there are times when such play is actually "wrong" if you have options available. Sometimes throwing that squishy champion into the middle of a big fight is correct.

    In the case of Damage Shield, it's usefulness is based on what range you're being attacked at. Whether a Melee is beating on another Melee or your Ranged doesn't impact how useful (or not useful) Damage Shield is. What is important is the toughness of the target with Damage Shield, and any resistances or mitigation on the attacking champion (and the rank of the ability, of course).

    There is no general "rule" or mechanic that dictates Melee will only ever attack Melee and Ranged only ever attack Ranged. You use whatever you have that is most suitable to get the job done at the time. To be sure, most Ranged are, generally speaking, more fragile than most Melee, but even considering it's cost Magearm is decently beefy, it's not like you won't get value out of that 1-3 nora if you're up against Melee, compared to most other Melee champions that have Damage Shield.

    Now, you can argue that Damage Shield is a bad ability, I've never been excited about it (but I've never really thought: "if only I had that 3 more nora!" or at least not often), but I think the premise of your argument, specifically to say that Damage Shield is better on Melee, is flawed.

    But that's just my opinion.
    Leadrz likes this.
  16. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    The usefulness of an ability is determined by how often it triggers and how useful when it triggers.

    The Dmg Shield on long ranged champions is very unlikely to be triggered, and the 6 damage is not a big deal.

    Therefor it is not useful and should cost very little or be removed.

    The champion cost should never be balanced by giving sandbags to them.

    Saying the design of this kind makes sence is trolling.
    NiGhtMaRiK likes this.
  17. bambino

    bambino I need me some PIE!

    if giving a ranged unit a dam shield just to raise his cost is true...then yea..thats a bad formula. ..in fact its more of an opinion then a formula, this not a selling point for me on range in the first place.
    the problem is that range dam should never be equal to melee dam in the first place.
    An arrow to the leg is quite different then a sword to the leg.
  18. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    Ranged champions have to pay for their range....I think this is how they do balancing on ranged champions currently.
  19. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    That's correct. I think the speculation however is that some specific units were given "sandbags" because their current stat-based formulae isn't considered up to snuff. Certainly there are valid points on this front. For example, Boghopper Toad is just as over-efficient stat-wise as he was prior to losing Lethargic. On the other hand, being "saddled" with Leap 2/3 or Logistics raised the overall cost significantly, and thus feels "balanced" by many now, in spite of the fact that Leap 3 or Logistics are actually still fairly useful (effective SPD 8 can be nice, even with the restructured maps).

    I don't think that's the case here. No one was saying that Magearm was too cheap for it's stats.

    The real issue is how useful Damage Shield is, which is a function of how much Ranged there is (and psuedo-ranged for that matter). I personally don't think the value of Damage Shield is greater or lesser depending on the minion it's on (melee or ranged) as I've stated above but I do think it's a function of how much viable Melee there is, and how easy it is for those Melee units to work around Damage Shield anyway (through healing, alternative attacks, Tough, Resistances, whatever). And from there, how much 1-3 Nora is worth by comparison of the effectiveness of the ability in general.

    If there's not much Melee or too many ways to ignore their Melee nature and the pitfalls thereof, Damage Shield won't be useful. If there's a lot of Melee, with few/no ways around it, Damage Shield will actually be very good, even if for no other reason than forcing AP to be spent on Healing (in addition to movement, attacks, etc.)

    I don't like Damage Shield taking up a whole upgrade tree unless it's party of the synergy of the unit (Adept, as you mentioned previously) but I don't think it's inherently bad on ranged either (I could see it as an optional upgrade... it IS quite cheap as an ability and if the meta's got a lot of Melee...), outside of the fact that it won't be useful in a mirror match (unit-wise).
  20. ghklf

    ghklf The King of Potatoes

    I really can't see why Damage Shield on Ranged has the equal usefulness on Melee.

    We should't use rare scenario in the discussion of how an ability is cuz any ability can be extremely useful in the scenarios that r designed for them.

    If u need to run Stitched Magearm(or Sarinda), what will u pick for its upgrade?

    Most of us will pick rank 1 Damage Shield: Magical for obvs reason.

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