Why does AP Denial exist?

I agree that we don't want to turn Pox into fancy online chess, but if the mechanic is out of control enough to make games unbearable, then it should be brought to light. I haven't played against any AP denial since I play single player, but I can sympathize.

+10946

 

AP denial is one of very very few BG concepts that I am firmly against. There really isn't anything enjoyable about sitting around being unable to do anything while your opponent plays, there are no real counters to the BG.

 

AP denial should be changed to not stacking in any way.

 

I totally had to LOL

 

There ARE counters to the BG. The vast bulk of the AP denial is equipment dependent. There are champs that grant unequippable. Run one. It's fun to watch your opponent squirm, trying to equip things and then realizing that all of their weak-ass champs are pretty easy to kill when they cannot deny you AP any more.

 

Eh if you see ap denial do what normal people do surrender. It's a broken theme if you can call it one either new player's run it or people who can't win any other way.

 

AoE Unequippable sounds like a pretty real counter to me Comi. Also, the champs that stack ap denial are pretty weak to begin with - you can usually do some heavy damage with your remaining ap before the denial actually starts

 

demolish AP denial
destroy rushing
decimate spell stacking
proceed to enjoy the game

 

AP denial SHOULD exist IMO. Non standard deck types add a lot to this game.

It should maybe be changed to be less annoying though.

 

Needs moar runnable counters (that do other things besides simply counter one style)

 

The best offence against AP denial is ranged attack, but AP Denial is often played as /IS so RD usually makes it a losing battle no matter what.

 

There are counters to that too.

 

I think that's part of the problem red. There are counters. But it's highly unlikely you are running a BG that has them when you need it.

I mean you can go out an design a BG to counter AP denial sure but that's whatever.

I mean even anti equip cools down slower than your opponent can throw around mind shackles (which give -1 spd: insult to injury)

 

I never found ap denial all that strong, I mean sure once it gets a lock on you you can't do much but that really isn't much different from most bgs, it is just more obvious. All of the key lock champs are fairly squishy and are not very good at killing things on their own so just kill them, problem solved.

 

Hello, Point A. I'd like you to take this non-stop flight to Point Z right away, thanks. (I dunno how you got from "APD should stay" to "otherwise we'd all be playing the same decks with pallet-swapped pieces" but it's amusing.)

Anyway, really the problem here is that AP Denial currently turns "AP reduction" into "AP discontinuation". If APD turned 7 SPD champs into 4-5 SPD champs instead of 1-2 SPD champs, you'd still have a powerful theme (obviously it would need some offensive tweaks) without completely crippling the opponent's ability to... well, play.

 

What I meant was that if we are going to remove everything that people doesn't like, at the end we will end with chess, because today is ap denial, tomorrow is spell spam, later is ap generation, then relocation and so on, everybody has a aspect of the game he doesn't like, that doesn't mean it's bad. Imagine that someone said "relocation abilities are bad" and a bunch of people agreed with him, should we remove relocation abilities?

I also want to say that AP denial needs to nerfed (further), but that isn't what this thread is discussing, bringing to balance is what I want and erasing the theme is what some people want.

 

The counters that I run (specifically tailored to APD) are also useful in their own right, and provide counters to other things...

 

i agree there should be no stacking of the ap denial.....then it wouldnt be so ridiclous...

 

At this point ap denial is abused so badly that maybe its time to treat the ability magnetic pulse like temple of brutality. Ban mag pulse from play until it can be remade into something effective yet still allows your opponent to retaliate. If temple of brutality had not been banned im sure it would be just as popular to abuse as ap denial by now.

 

When 80% of the skill component of running a deck is in the construction of the deck, that's where I have issue. It's the same reason we'll likely never see possession as a full theme, or other specific control mechanics.

The problem, to me, like others have stated, is the fact that you can stack the effects on top of each other, and go from AP denial to turn denial. And the core of the AP denial engine is small enough, that you don't even really have to sacrifice any kind of utility to provide counters to the counters that would work. (Insert inception/Yo dawg! jokes here).

Personally, I think it should be moved down into a 'subset' range of control abilities, and that control itself should be promoted. AP denial as a much more minor effect than it is now, along with possession, terrain control, pacify effects, etcetra. Let the deck concept become about manipulating your opponent's pieces, instead of different flavors of 'Punch it hard.' Although, technically, you'd still end up having to punch things in a Control deck, but it wouldn't be the primary focus.

At it's roots, AP Denial isn't really any better than the older Attrition engine in FW (Although somehow we've allowed even more factions the Attrition Engine playstyle /shrug). And people can agree that full on Attrition was terrible in its earlier implementations because there wasn't any real skill needed after you built the deck.

Whenever this discussion rears it's head, I can't help but think about all the times people have had conversations over the 'build a theme around a common attack type,' and I shudder. I believe there's hope, though, there's always hope.