worries about the big change

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AmmonReros, Mar 29, 2014.

  1. AmmonReros

    AmmonReros I need me some PIE!

    The so-called simplification of the game by removing skills and stats from 99% of the champs aches my heart.
    Whenever I read about it and people wanting that it makes me a little more sad.
    Yes I too am for some of the things that were suggested by soem users about granting the game an easier access. Like making runes as strong as their rarity suggests, yet without overpowering the exo/leg/lim runes. In the end we dont want to be forced to make a BG that only consists of those three rarities and does not include C/U/R runes at all.
    But I am worried about everyone who is like me and actually really likes complexity.

    Like for example when I look at the example that was given with the Bowmage. He has 4 abilities listed and you can upgrade 2 more. Making it 6 abilities total. Basic attack, Blindfire, Evasive 2 and Imbue Stun + as said 2 of the 4 possible upgrades. Now I believe that Blindfire and Evasive 2 was taken away. Yet that straightout weakens the champ in such crucial way that it would immediately go to my shoebox and never see the sunlight again.

    Alltogether I'm just really worried that if this overhaul is done "wrong" that I may have to quit because it isnt Pox Nora for me anymore. And that just because some ****** (my words, not necessarily fact and not meant as an insult to anyone) suggested to change the system.

    IF you are worried about the same thing, or anything else that concerns what is coming up please share it.

    On a pretty related sidenote I wonder if April fools could be that all champs lose ALL abilities. And you then only fight with bare stats. dmg, spd, def, hp and nora cost.
    yohex, rickyjpen and Gnomes like this.
  2. TheNidhogg

    TheNidhogg I need me some PIE!

    It will be okay. The core gameplay makes PoxNora, not the complicated abilities.
    Funkyo, Nemorga, Zaptastic and 5 others like this.
  3. LoganMkv

    LoganMkv I need me some PIE!

    I don't want to believe owls are dumb enough to kill their own game.
    Complexity is the only thing that keeps the game floating and the only selling point, if they reduce it indeed people would just play hearthstone/mtg/any other simple game.
  4. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    This is a example of what I expect the changes to be:

    Ferren pouncer
    Basic attack - core
    Arctic -core
    Ferren focus -core
    Dodge - anti range
    Hidden artic - terrain synergy, anti range (in most maps)
    hit and run - mobility ability
    mobility - mobility ability (overlaps with hit and run)
    swap - power ability - core
    improve damage - racial synergy
    Escape - survability, but counter synergetic
    Dodge 2 - more anti range
    Reinforcement - speed
    Forage - useless (mostly)

    After revamp :

    Ferren pouncer
    ferren focus
    hit and run
    dodge 2
    Hidden snow

    Assuming current upgrade system, this would be a less cluttered ferren pouncer (as I would do it), keeping all the core functionalities. The power decrease should be addressed tweaking stats and considering all the other champions in his theme(s).

    Do you feel changes like this would be bad?
  5. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    At the moment, this is what I want the most, personally:
    1) Scratch Icor and Solo abilities - theres no need for those and they mostly just hurt the game;
    2) Barb racial gone - that thing is wack;
    3) Max number of abilities a champ can have, regardless of rarity.

    After that, revamping each rune will take a while, there should be priorities.
    nitebane21 likes this.
  6. BansheeX

    BansheeX I need me some PIE!

    I all for this.
  7. TheNidhogg

    TheNidhogg I need me some PIE!

    Can we also talk about this line? How is this not meant to insult anyone?
  8. Greysands22

    Greysands22 I need me some PIE!

    Yeah OP seems to think that being insulting and making pox so complex that you have to spend 2 years playing it everyday to even begin to compete is somehow good for the game?
    theKraken likes this.
  9. only

    only Active Member

    what you like/want is depth. you confuse it with complexity. they depend on each other, but they're different things at the same time.

    depth =/= complexity

    less is more. this is the case of poxnora.

    the only valid point you stated is the ratio of one-rounding aka "how fast/easily you can kill champion". imagine if all champions would gain +20 HP now. but it would impact the game not only for champions, but it would dramatically change the float of game, because of changing its pace. on top of that, champion vs non champion runes "effiency" would get the meaning. so if you're afraid of the fact that all champions would lose some abilities, it might be the case, then you have a right to worry, there will be such changes, but we don't know anything about how they're exactly going to revamp it.

    in most cases, we could even keep all powerlevel the same with less abilities. so instead of 2 low (maybe ven similar role) abilities we could give 1 stronger/higher level and refund it with HP/DEF if the case was defensice mechanism abilities. if revamp would be done in such a manner, there wouldn't be any significant gamechanging things "introduced", we would keep the powerlevel of runes and rune classes (champions vs non champions) and probably wouldn't impact META game. we would just make it simplier and simplier in this case would probably involve even more depth.
    Ragic likes this.
  10. Xiape

    Xiape I need me some PIE!

    I think you should first see what the redesign brings and then react to it.

    What several of us propose is to focus each champion on a specific role with one or two tricks, and then remove the extra abilities or side roles. I personally feel like immunities, racials, and stat boosts make good upgrades since they're only minor changes to roles.

    In addition, keep in mind that by doing a general redesign, factions may not be so dependent on individual runes. For example, if KF "needs" a 4-7 champion with evasive 2 to compete, it might not need such a rune after the redesign.
    DarkJello likes this.
  11. only

    only Active Member

    the way I imagine poxnora, would be 1-4 abilities, no upgrades.

    is Firk Mind Shredder boring because he has 1 ability?
    is Salaman Picket interesting because he has 10 abilities?

    consolidating abilities doesn't mean removing abilities completely. they need to be reworked to work against each other to create various interactions.

    would Barbarian Buttcrack be boring this way?

    Attack: Physical
    Savage: Beast Clan
    Pet: Boar
    Lay Trap: Boulder

    I believe that once the game is more about trade-offs rather than initial advantage it's more balanced. see how good some runes are like Whisperghast, but since they're easily to kill outside their trick, they aren't treated so harshly.
  12. PharumM

    PharumM Member

    if that would be the case then many of the synergies would simply stop existing
    for example ferren are very terrain based mobility and stelth depending
    hit & run
    arctic stelth
    are the core of the ferren basicly being fast and agile
    if taken away many of the ferren would be literaly striped dry and unplayable
    its not like thay are playable now with all of the skills
    all though i dont say that kind of chainge would be neseserly bad but the risk of making whole theme's not only ferren upside down is huge

    and to be honest i am horribly terrified for my theme
    rickyjpen likes this.
  13. RedDain

    RedDain I need me some PIE!

    Again, it's not the abilities, it's the fact that some champs do EVERYTHING. Ferren are simply ridiculous. Some of the new horse-rider barbarians are ridiculous. Several of the "staple" runes are ridiculous. Even after multiple nerfs, Coragh is ridiculous. Enforcer of the Circle is ridiculous. Bold/Dictate/Aura/Regen/Ranged/Melee everything champ. Give me a break. Augur of the Deep is ridiculous. It is not healthy to allow that many contingencies to be covered by a single champ.

    Spread those abilities around. Stop with the "every competitive BG in this faction MUST have this rune to be competitive" -- it's bad for the game. It puts ALL the ply depth into one core set of "must-haves" and the rest is just filler. Then each game is a race to see who can get their "core" runes out and active with support.

    The game has become ALL maximin, and almost NO minimax.
  14. PharumM

    PharumM Member

    honetly you cant say that ferren have it all non of them are match for enforcer of the circle or corgath
    or augur and all of them except of dancer have physical attack absolutly no chance versus stuff like spellkaiser or pegasus

    just tell me wich ferren is op like enforcer or corgath ?
    master ?
    wanderer ?
    dancer ?
    pouncer ?
    brawler ?

    you can put pasive abilities on champions like hidden arctic or other silly things it doesint have that much impact on the theme
    non of them are as immortal or undestructable as corgath / enforcer / kaiser or
    insane like minotaur with shrinking

    having many abilities on champion that are esentialy harmles but are nesesery for some kind of synergy is ok and i understand the nesesity of puting less abilities on champions but lets be honest here abilities arent equal arent balansed

    i'll make it short
    no one ferren can win you game
    one enforcer can one corgath can one general can
  15. RedDain

    RedDain I need me some PIE!

    If you can't crush KF with a Ferren BG, then you're doing it wrong.

    If one enforcer or one coragh wins games against you, running ferren... you're doing it wrong.
  16. Emries

    Emries Devotee of the Blood Owl

    All I'm saying is that if they oversimplify everything like ArenaNet's Guild Wars 2 from Guild Wars 1... plsno
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
    yohex and rickyjpen like this.
  17. PharumM

    PharumM Member

    if that is your argument than you are just stupid man ******** even
    i can and i am crushing kf but not with one champion that lead whole game, ferren need team work no one single rune can give you that advantage in ferrren
    as i recall that isint what we are talking about
    we talk about champion that just by walking have 8 defence ranged atack Firking aura and god knows what
    we are talking about op champions
    that ferrren arent and i feel like you have bean losing to them quite so offten becouse if that is your only example you deserve to lose to ferren every time
  18. PharumM

    PharumM Member

    guild was 1 was way more customizable in classes gave player quite the edge and fun
  19. AmmonReros

    AmmonReros I need me some PIE!

    While I agree that champions like Ferren Pouncer are way too complicated (takes more then 30 seconds to read and understand) it isnt as versatile as it seems. Doubling abilities like Mobility and Hit and Run is too much, and I said that before, so it could be reduced to either of them. But taking both away just to minimize the count of abilities he has and thus to take away what he was designed for and is right now would cripple the champ. And if you do the same thing to all Ferren, the whole theme.

    I like versatility. I like being able to have one champ that I can use in different ways in two BGs. So, as again someone else said, if I can go either combat cleric or full healer from a basic support unit that is good. But if I have one champ and he can only be one and never change that would be bad.
    If you then equalize all champions in the game to that principle we soon end up with maybe 3 roles total that are present. Melee, ranged and support. They wont be able to do anything else and they wont be allowed to interact in any different way compared to another unit of the same role. They become rock, paper and scissors. And that I can play with my hands.
    rickyjpen likes this.
  20. Emries

    Emries Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Glad we agree on something

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