I don't understand this part. We don't "vote" anymore. I have my own set of people I picked - some of them were people that got voted in that I liked and kept around, others are players I added such as DMR and Devils. Just because you don't think they have knowledge doesn't mean I don't have a reason to have them on my team. I don't know how many times I have to explain this to you.
Main difference is that when I peaked at this game, I was #1 battlemaster kicking Tiny's **** constantly, for example, for a big period of time. My constant rank was top 5, and that says a lot. Your peak was reaching top 100 one time. Yeah. There is a big difference there, amigo. But hey, I'm not making balance discussions anymore, Im just saying Abominable is terrible, anyone can tell. Except you.
Agreed 100%. But just because you like them I don't have to also, correct? Edit: Im leaving work and not touching this thread until tomorrow, so dont bother typing to me specifically if you are expecting a reply today.
You don't have to like them. But the problem is you bash them for no real reason constantly and then turn that into a tirade against the Council and then Pox in general as though somehow everything about Pox is Lush or Xirone's fault. If you don't like a particular decision, that's on ME, not them. I choose who I listen to on various subjects. There's no reason to constantly attack people because they happen to be on the Council.
Haha oh no no no, don't get me wrong Pede's definitely got some issues he needs to work on but I just felt that particular thing he said did have merit. @Lushiris No one is saying you have to be limited, just sort of jump in from time to time and grab some hands on experience. I used to ONLY play unranked games with the idea that once I get better, I'll switch over to ranked so as to not ruin my W/L ratio. Eventually I got a little better, even beating people I normally didn't stand a chance against. So I hopped into ranked , got bent over and smashed lmao What I'm tying to say is, people seem to play very different things with a very different mindset in unranked vs ranked.
Irony here is that just today I penciled in a decision change to Abombinable because I didn't like it
To be frank, I honestly don't care if Lush plays ranked. I have PLENTY of ranked hardcore players on the Council. That said, sure, if Lush wants to be taken more seriously in general on the forums, then playing more ranked will give him more credibility. But either way there's no reason to bash him or the Council repeatedly. I mean, that's my problem with all this. Why come on here just to bash people? If you have a comment on the actual topic of discussion, make those comments. Instead, now most of this thread is not even about Yeti Painter anymore.
I disagree. Good ideas can come from anywhere. In fact, that's one of the hallmarks of a good designer, to be able to notice when an idea is good even if it didn't come from within. Balance, of course, is a separate issue altogether. In this case, Lush remembered wrong. This rune, as *I* already said, barely changed from paper to final. So basically, this entire thing started because of a miscommunication and people jumping on other people for something they said, which I already previously stated was not the case.
This is pretty much the case. I make the final decisions, but I need the sounding board instead of an empty room.
I actually don't do the detailed descriptions of the art unless I have a specific request. But you are probably right in that this could have used a better description which would have helped.
I don't really have an issue with non top players being part of the council, after all they just seem to be there to make proper discussions. What I do wonder about is how these things are discussed and what is deemed as a priority when it comes to working on themes. Take Ferren as an example. Surely there have been changes which have been beneficial as well the addition of a racial, but even though different champs have been changed in different ways they still don't have in theme Detection and Shatter, which in my opinion something that should never fit in the category of things a theme 'can do without'. This is not new either, considering how you had to go off theme while using Lonx to access shatter before the Lonx Facilitator was released. So in the end, despite the constant influx of changes and new champions (which are not a bad thing) to the Ferren theme they still remain unusable and not competitive or even interesting to use, giving off a sense that the time poured to make these changes was completely wasted. They're just sort of there, waiting for things to happen which might result in something good or just nothing at all. The Nora cost to keep things going and the amount of champs necessary to pull off their main gimmick simply doesn't add up. Yetis too are silly expensive, and whilst it's true that the new one has added a lot to the theme (sole reason being Yeti needed ranged damage) they're still rather uninteresting and have very little going on. This is something very noticeable by just seeing them in the current context of the game, as much as any other theme out there, so quite frankly I fail to understand the approach towards changes at times and feel that the matters that should be addressed are often overlooked.
In regards to things like in theme Shatter/Detection, I guess it depends on people's philosophies whether they consider that to be a problem or not. Some people feel that each theme should have X or Y ingredients. Others feel less so or more so. I can see why you'd say Yeti is uninteresting (I tend to agree they are pretty straight forward as a theme), but I am not sure I follow how not having Detection or Shatterin theme does that to Ferren. In fact, my experience has been that Ferren is super interesting to play. There's certainly arguments to be had about power levels (as there always is). In general, it seems many people seem to think things are either OP or too expensive (and thus not interesting), and I have to admit I don't quite follow this rationale sometimes. Perhaps it's just my own failure, but I am sad a theme I spent so much time on, Ferren, is still considered terrible in terms of power level and ALSO uninteresting to play.
One consideration that's popped up recently is that maybe I should stop trying to fix themes since most people seem to consider them all terrible (I tried to fix Wings, they are still terrible, I fixed Ferren, still terrible, I changed Boost, now Skeletons are terrible, I nerfed the broken stuff in Dwarfs, now theya re terrible, I nerfed Skeezick Alliance because it was bonkers, now Skeezick suck, etc. I fixed Salaman, they were OP for 2 days and now no one plays them.) No matter what changes a different set is still terrible (themes are either OP or shoebox and no one wants to play them, basically), and I get complaints EVERY EXPANSION from people that their particular theme was not expanded on or updated. Instead, if I can focus on making more general abilities that are interesting instead of theme-centric runes, it seems like it would have more impact because they are applicable to so many more BGs. That way, when new runes come out or runes are updated, various people are interested in them. As much as I like themes, it doesn't seem like it's working, and with SO many themes that people seem to want (and themes that aren't even themes getting pushed daily such as Centaurs) I simply do not have the time or resources to constantly adjust every theme over and over and over.
Oh also, @JellyBerry, what are themes you consider interesting to play and why? And what does Ferren and other themes you consider not interesting to play not have that would make them interesting?
Because despite having something different to offer and play around with, there are very little means to pull this off. Ferren are currently low damage champions that heavily rely on extra nora usage via spells to make things happen. The way I see it if there is an ability which is their main gimmick and I have to use units of other race in my deck to address certain situations, I'm missing out. What are my options then? Rebound is just plain bad and there might be an argument to Frostbite being a decent alternative which actually adds up in terms of synergy, but that's still extra nora and less deploying, which is what they thrive on. To me not having essentials (in my opinion anyway) to deal with basic stuff is pretty lame, and yep, it's mu opinion after all. I saw buddha make a Yeti deck and it had a depressing amount of well known "good stuff" champions in order to make it work. If that's the way things are meant to be then I have no idea why themes are being the main focus. It's not a matter of things not being cheap enough, it's just that it doesn't feel like you're getting back what you paid for because they can't even work alone to begin with. Themes won't live up to good stuff decks under any circumstances, but it's sad to see that a Ferren Snowspinner gets more done in a good stuff deck than it does within it's racial, because within the last it's cost is actually justified. There is no direct correlation between cost and how interesting something might be, but realistically it's something that has to be taken into account and has weight when it comes to playability (is that even a word?).
That doesn't seem like an interest argument so much as a power level argument. Am I wrong? I am not also sure this is a Ferren problem. I mean, this is how Pox works. You use non-champion runes to make things happen. It's why top level decks largely only use non-champion runes in those slots that have immediate game-changing impacts. I can see why Ferren might be more dependent on some of these features, but does that make them uninteresting if they are more able to leverage such tools than other themes? Are themes more interesting when the runes that make up the theme are better independent of the racial/playstyle of the theme?
So this sounds like you are arguing that not only is Ferren Focus not worth its cost (4 nora basically), but also that most Ferren are so bad that they can't be played, thus with a bad racial it is even worse? In other words, even if we removed Ferren Focus from all Ferren, most would still be bad champs because you aren't getting back what you paid for? Let's say this is true. Are there specific Ferren that could be fixed? Most of them have negative modifiers now too, by the way. I am not sure how to make them better without blatantly making them all have OP'd stats or free abilities? For example, let's imagine Ferren Brawler didn't have Focus (and had Arctic instead), and was -4 nora cheaper. Is he a bad champ and unplayable in any deck? If so, what is wrong with him exactly?
Should Ferren Focus just drop Distracted so it gets to Slowed/Sundered faster? This seems like it doesn't address much of what's been said other than making the payoff easier for the racial, which might help a bit. I would also note, more generally speaking, that the Ferren adjustments were largely public and made here in the ST forums.
It is a matter of interest because while Ferren Focus is in theory a fun mechanic along with other things the theme has to offer there are no realistic ways to pull it off successfully. To address the previous question I do believe Ferren are interesting and offer a different kind of playstyle which is much needed in a faction like ST which is mostly composed of high hp cost effective beaters, but the inability to use them as they're meant to kind of ruins it for me, which is often the case in a PvP scenario. Their racial being mostly optional in case things add up and not their go to deal or signature "move" prevents me from even trying to work things out. There are very few match ups where I have seen the actual Ferren champions doing more work than ST's signature spells (Gale, clearly). I'm a Split Deck person with a soft spot for ST as it was my very first faction. Whenever I intend to compete however Split Decks are my go to thing, and not because I aim for broken stuff, just because there are potential interactions. From silly ones like Dead Zone Voodoo plus knock back into things to potentially broken yet still silly ones like Shadowshank + Phoenix Anklet. These are gimmicks I plan and actually get all happy when I pull them off. The same thing could happen within themes. Ideally these main abilities should be constructed in a way in which they are not broken but actually add to the deck's personality. Ferren Focus is a lovely idea, it just stays like that most of the time, an idea. So in the end I'm not doing anything different by playing themes, because it ends up being somewhat the same with a mild difference (like yetis, they beat up stuff and sometimes smell it, yay?).
