Buffs to Ferren and Salaman were done in public, actually, in the ST and FS forums respectively. Wings were also done in public, mostly in GD. In all cases I personally played the themes a bunch while contemplating the adjustments. As for nerfs to the others, they came from both players in general and some Council recommendations, but I think in general people expected those nerfs and they were also previewed in the Crate for weeks. So, yea, can't blame the Council for this either. ~ One thing I think I am doing tho, is being too cautious on power levels, and listening to nerf herding in general too much.
Well, then it's just a matter of getting things right with time, don't give up on themes cause they are the coolest decks to be played (imo, of course). You will get things right eventually. Edit: also, I would like to point out that most of the active forum dwellers atm are really bad players too, so relying on their feedback might not be the best route if you are looking for "perfect balance spot" or whatever.
So your recommendation would be to just ignore forums and chat and just do whatever I think is right?
Haha, in my ideal world, yes. Realistically, though, when it comes to pure balancing decisions I'd rely most on guys who are the best of the best at the moment. And that's all I have been saying this past year. You dont agree, Im fine with that (I really am).
Actually, I do agree with that. I generally listen to the better players when it comes to balance feedback for high ranked play (being better, they also tend to have better arguments and evidence to present, so even on that alone they will get listened to more). But this isn't the only type of feedback I need and utilize - which is what I've been trying to explain all this time. Some are great at helping with general design direction - they come up with interesting mechanics and alternative solutions. Something, frankly, that many high ranked players aren't as good at, because they focus on efficiency and power level. Some are great at providing feedback on indirect gameplay aspects, such as Entrepidus and kalasle (though the latter isn't on the Council, he has done a lot of work on descriptions and gameplay rules). Others provide valuable insight into Single Player or non-conventional decks and themes. Some are just great at catching description errors and edge cases (Xirone is one of these, no matter how you feel about his ranked play or balance sense, he is almost always the ones to point out edge cases for me). All of these are valuable to me. At the same time, just because is good doesn't mean they know what they are talking about or can explain themselves in a way that's useful, and many players just doesn't participate enough to really provide anything valuable, even when they have been given an opening on the Council.
Yeah, I know that and I agree, actually. Because, as you explained to me a bazillion times, for a "design team" to be good, the people there must have different abilities. I get that and I agree, because Xirone's creativity for example is very valuable. I get that now and I applaud you for bringing those guys in. My concern started because Lushiris made a post in which he made it look like he had a big role on the Yetis Painter design regarding balance (he even said he was OP originally and then you toned it down due to his request, as if the guy would know what really is OP in the meta environment - he doesnt play), which led to people asking about Abomination, which just made it look worse all along. Then you came in and said that was all a confusion, he said things in a way that werent true. Case closed as far as I'm concerned. Maybe we should get back on track, to which I will reply: Yeti Painter looks like a really good unit to be played with, but he is in a theme that nobody wants to play because their racial is awful and terrible and anyone saying that its good or they like it should feel bad (not really, but you get my point).
Themes were originally meant as a way to create more design space in an old game right? Seems like they've been very successful in this, maybe to the extent that they've sidelined meta decks, at least in terms of development, so that each expansion isn't 'hey, what cool runes for my faction are there?' but 'Did the themes I play get any new runes?'. The worry is that if sok takes it back to a meta (by which i mean goodstuff decks) focused environment, that the original problem remains, that there's only so much design space that 4 factions allow before everything does everything and new content becomes increasingly tenuous.
I don't think you need to worry about this. Sok's frustrated because frankly people don't know what they want. If he releases too strong, people will nerfcall. If he releases too weak, people will buffcall. There really isn't a good side to things. Best you can hope for is that you are on top of the meta enough that will you know the perfect spot you want a rune in. Like I said, its just a matter of time, he will get things right eventually. I wish I was playing so I could give more feedback... It saddens me that I dont.
After so long I view balancing this game as "chasing the dragon". It will only ever be balanced within reason. As you know balance was all the rage 5-6 years ago, almost everything was reworked. Now the same runes that were reworked then have long since been altered and changed, all that previous balancing was pointless since its not even in use anymore. It obviously wasn't balanced if it needed to be changed again. Its a cycle that never stops in this game. I of course think its pragmatic to balance the game within reason, but I also find its wise to not fight against the nature of something. Don't try to balance what cant be balanced, it is a waste of time, like punching water. This game has been being balanced for a long time now, and lets be real, where did that get this game ? Perhaps more outside the box approach and ideas. Consider stripping out ranking and getting rid of leaderboard (for a few reasons), moves that will take the focus of Meta and put it back on fun and deck building etc. This game changed massively when the first leaderboard was introduced and not for the better, the focus all became the handful of top builds and ever since the game has been shrinking. MIx up the reasons and the decks people would play. Balancing will always have to be done, but trying to "fix" the game through balance is a fools quest. I think there is a way to harness the nature of the game without fighting against it. Good luck balancing ! and I still think pox is one of the coolest games out there.
I didn't say it was toned down due to my request. Just go check my post. I probably said( I'm not even checking because I kinda know what I say) that I felt it wasn't a good design, complained about it, and then Sok changed it. It doesn't mean Sok did what I "told" him to, which isn't really how council works. And like I said after, it wasn't what happened, as such design was never designed by Sok, but by another player, and I mixed my memories up. So in the end, Painter as he is now is all Sok's work, with a few ideas from Calisk( I believe).
I did double check it prior to posting. Here's what you said: Highlighted for you. Either way, I don't want this thread to turn into an argument again, so I will leave this stuff aside.
Which doesn't mean he did as I told him, strictly speaking. But yea I see what that implies. All in all, I wrote it wrong. The truth is, I don't even know if he even read what I said. I just saw Painter was in a line I liked and assumed he did it because of what I said. But one last time, no council member has EVER designed a rune. And that's how it will always be. We all make mistakes, and I've admitted my one mistake in this thread more than once. But I wonder if you're done poking the wound. And after several people have said( including me), I don't see why you're so hastily judging me: you don't play this game, you claim to completely not care about it, or about whatever is happening, but you're the first to argue with self-claimed authority that I'm horrible for council. This is a brutal paradox(another one). And I'm saying these things because believe it or not(no irony), I actually care about you have to say. If it were mw, bp or baller I'd just attack their stupidity and call it a day. But I do understand you have interesting points to make, as most players here do. The bottom line is, I chose my words very badly, and do regret it. But now I hope you understand how council works, cause I don't wanna repeat(again).
Problem is, Lushbud, I'm a lawyer, and darn good one, and stuff like this just makes me go on "full reply objectively mode". That's why I like quoting people, because they can't change what they wrote. Either way, we both know that players DO design runes from time to time, and that's fine - there are guys who are very creative and good at putting synergies together, you are probably one of those, so its all good. This doesnt bother me, what bothers me is average players making balance calls. Sok already said he uses mostly guys at the top for that, so its a non issue. Ok, a few things: 1) I'm not judging you at all. I often call out everyone I see as not "fit" to make balance calls, thats all. And I only am aware of you and Xirone, I'd like to include Badger on that list too but the guy DOES play UD well, so I can let it slide when it comes to UD topics. If there are more players that fit the criteria of not being very good but are making balance calls, he will hear my annoyance as well. I have no personal agenda against you, trust me; 2) The paradox about me not playing and not caring about it is probably like an ex-girlfriend that you were really in love but you never managed to get over her. You don't want to care about her, but every time you hear about her all those feelings get back. This is my relationship with Pox. The main thing is that I DO want to get back to the game, I just want it to have more players so that I don't end up playing the same people over and over again. And there is only one way I can help getting the numbers up: giving advice on what I feel are good measures to boost the game. Of course some will agree and some won't, but in the end I'm going to try and help because I want to get back. Also, thanks for the kind words. I know I come off as a jerk most of the time, but really my only goal is to see Pox healthy and running smoothly. Either way, sorry if I made you feel bad. 3) Please bud, I DO NOT, and I repeat, I DO NOT want you to leave the council. I understand that everyone in there has merits due to their own skills and whatnot, which is awesome for Sok. I just wish that balance calls are restricted to the top players, that is all, really. So I'm not going to bother you with this crap again. I think I've made my points enough now, and that is really all I wanted to do.
Yetis have actually been seeing play lately and in all honesty it seems as though people have under estimated them.
I always felt like focused "themed" play has no place in Pox Nora. Back when I played and lead pointless Ice Shard debates with cactuses themes were not really a thing. Well, they were a thing, actually, since you can kind of call anything with some kind of synergy a theme... Basically nobody used the word "theme" in the way that it's used now. People still had their ice amp decks or were spell spamming or trying to stick only lonx in their BG which was pretty pathetic because there were like 2 lonx in the whole game that were actually usable but people dealed with it anyway! Since themes got into the spotlight things seemed to change. Maybe it's actually a change that is in no way related to the game itself and has everything to do with its aging player base, but now we have people crying about not having a shatter option because putting an elephant in a catgirl deck would be ridiculous. People complain about about one theme being better than the other theme, asking why that theme is being buffed while something that isn't even officially a theme isn't being touched and whatever else there is about themes to say. Also I feel like themes made the game more monotone. I used to enjoy watching games back in the days. We didn't have much variety but people still managed to do some interesting things with what they had.. Sometimes. Now when you see somebody drop two lonx on the field you pretty much already know what their BG will look like and that takes something away from the game, in my opinion anyway. And when it comes to spending money on the game it's mostly the same for me. When the "selling point" of a rune pack is a champion that will only work in a certain theme deck that I don't care for I feel highly unmotivated to purchase said pack. ... I usually buy it anyway because I'm collecting ST things even though I don't really play PN anymore. But for a sane person that might be a real turn off reason, maybe. Anyway, if the focus should shift from themes to just fun runes I'd be overjoyed.
I disagree with your point that themes are more monotone. As you said, it feels that way because people are more aware of what it takes to call something a "theme". However, the efforts to include diverse runes into several playstyles bear fruits in every patch and expansion, and even so, non-themed BG's still dominate the meta. It doesn't mean creativity is being hindered, because it's just the natural flow of things that people manage to get to know the runes more given time, allowing less "true creativity" as time passes. It's just natural. And despite what I just said, you can still find people making very interesting BG's and combos - although it is a bit harder to do so without the greens being aware of it - that shake the meta now and then.
There is a lot of good points here. I love themes, but they do tend to stifle the creative side of deck building. As a personal annocdote to this, I've been rotating playing imps, spiders, stitched, bleed for quite a while, and was enjoying it, but then started messing about redesigning an old maxxrek deck into a deck focused on surprise relocates and AP gen. Basically I deploy AP gen champs (alchamist, summoner, puppet master) and relocate (DEP, monstrosities, informants) save up some Nora and stall a while. Then suddenly rapid assault deploy an ireguard/Max/aspect of oblivion and relocate and AP it, so you end up with a 10+ AP monster in the middle font from nothing. It's really satisfying, not just because it's cool, but because I developed it myself rather than being th off the shelf synergy that most themes are. So I agree with Hiyashi that the game has lost something in creative deckbuilding, and the good things that brings, but I also agree with Pede/lush that people really like themes. I also think that it's going to be tough to come up with sustainable new content (that isn't repetative or boring or just weird) without the development of new themes to open design space for runes that do similar things to others but in a different context. Perhaps, it's possible to have both though. To have a certain amount of theme development and also to have non thematic abilities introduced at the same time. I do think that this requires new abilities for new non-theme champs though, or for noval combinations of abilities -- a yet another beater/ranged champ without a theme to make it interesting is pretty pointless. I also think that a bolder approach to abilities and spells would help, for stronger and unusual effects that people can base decks around.
