You didn't watch the presidential debate last night

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by BurnPyro, Sep 27, 2016.

  1. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    The main reason that politicians want the EC is because its a very dependable system. The problem this time was all the little snokflakes running around gathering polls that supported their agenda to hypehypehype Hillary into a win. It wasn't the EC that let the Dems down. It was miscalculation and arrogance.

    A candidate is only one person, being able to put time and money into areas and get direct results is something they like. Dems right now are whining about the EC, but whichever Dem is running next, is laying out his/her plan based on the EC map. If it was a pure popular vote, things would happen much differently. There'd be way more ground to cover because they wouldn't be able to necessarily ignore their deep red/blue states. It would be much more costly even cost prohibitive to buy the same results as they can right now with the EC. So my thoughts are, just like every time people whine about the EC, the politicians will get behind whatever side their constituents are on, to make a showing, then nothing will come of it. Neither side wants the uncertainty that would come with doing away with the EC.

    Already you can see the Dems shifting gears away from the focus of EC by getting the Jill whoever person to raise money for recounts. Lets not pretend that this random shitter politician had the connections to pull off that kind of move without the Dems blessing and help.
     
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  2. DarkJello

    DarkJello I need me some PIE!

    If Trump had won the popular vote and Hillary had dominated the Electoral College, even a whisper of discontent by righties would be blasted 24/7 by MSM as "sexist" and "racist" and "unamerican" and "dangerous" and proof positive that populism is a cancer of the mind and heart. That, or even more hyperbolic. We shall never 100% know, but that is my best guess based on decades of prior behavior.
     
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  3. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

    I kinda like Stein, but it does seem fishy to me that she raised more for this recount than she did for her entire presidential run, and in much less time.

    I'd say it was Hillary supporters donating to it, but if I'm remembering correctly, Hillary did poorly with small donors, so, that seems unlikely to me. It makes me wonder who is bankrolling this, and why.
     
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  4. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    I do recall Stein previously said that she'd sleep slightly better with Trump (though not much) than Clinton (on account of her concern about war with Russia being pushed by Clinton from her perspective). So it does seem odd overall.

    But who knows.
     
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  5. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    apparently a big rise in absentee votes in relation to previous years on systems that are deemed outdated makes her suspicious hackers did stuff.

    tell me what is required to donate:
    https://jillstein.nationbuilder.com/recount

    because depending on what is required there is an entire planet out there who could be contributing.
    thanks for sharing DJ.
     
  6. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

    Well, sure, but that seems unlikely to me. It may very well be the case that it's a bunch of small donations from all around the world, but I hadn't even heard of it until it had nearly reached its goal. It just doesn't seem like a true grassroots movement, it feels more (to me) that some rich party is funding this, which makes the whole thing seem fishy to me.
     
  7. Dagda

    Dagda Forum Royalty

    yeah the timeframe she seems to have raised the money in is suspiciously small, but there are evidently a host of options when it comes to messing with the election or with booting trump, so i guess it's not terribly surprising.


    as for jill slamming hillary, she sort of needed to- anyone voting because they wanted to avoid trump would naturally go to hillary, since none of the other options had a chance in the national. to get more votes, stein had to portray the candidate most of her supporters would back in a purely 2party system as a larger negative than one those same supporters have little use for.
     
  8. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    when those 54% only live in a couple of states, the yes. When states are not adequately represented by the union, they leave the union.
     
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  9. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    I don't doubt there might be weird Bane Shift going on, I just want to watch where this goes.
     
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  10. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    ...they do?
     
  11. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    ask britain
     
  12. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    the island?
     
  13. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

    This is exactly where I am
     
  14. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    It's getting cramped here.
     
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  15. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    She raised more money in 10 hours with no press conference than she did over 3 years for her campaign. Completely believable.

    Sweet justice will be that all that money will be gobbled up by lawyers and eventually lead to nothing.
     
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  16. Dagda

    Dagda Forum Royalty

    i've been wondering- if there was a recount and it somehow turned out that the election had been rigged for trump, would the slightly less than half of the country that voted trump accept that?

    or to be specific, would the people here accept that?
     
  17. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    While it's true "winner take all" is one of the problems, it is also what drives the "states" argument - if it's counties/districts voting for President, then I think it dilutes the whole idea of the EC on the basis of "state sovereignty" to some extent. (If nothing else I don't think you could get all the states to agree on doing it the same way - they don't even do it all the same way now - which is really the problem with trying to do much of anything in the US - every state wants to do it with their own spin on it.)

    And while it's true to some extent that it moves it a bit closer to individual vote, I feel like it just moves the same problem down one level while introducing gerrymandering into the Presidential election.

    And if you are willing to move to smaller bits here (moving from winner take all states to winner take all districts/whatever)... at what point do you stop? Might as well go all the way to individual vote? :D

    WINNER TAKE ALL INDIVIDUAL VOTE!


    Re: Recount Fundraising

    Comparing Stein's campaign fundraising to this fundraising makes no sense.

    They are completely different things.

    Stein's campaign fundraising was about her being President (with almost 0 chance of it happening).

    Stein's recount fundraising is about preventing Trump from being President.

    Which of these do you think has more support in general?

    Of course people are bankrolling this who might not have supported Stein's own campaign. Think about how much more money Clinton raised. This makes perfect sense. Stop wondering how/why it's happening.



    Re: If Trump had won Popular Vote and Lost


    It's possible MSM wouldn't be anti-EC, but I don't think you can prove that one way or another (unlike, say, Donald Trump's opinion on it, which can be proven to have changed now that he won).

    It seems more likely to say that is that since he did lose the PV and won the EC, Trump supporters who would called the election rigged had he won the PV and lost the EC, now don't consider it rigged. I mean, that was part of the argument early on in the Trump camp when he was talking about how it was rigged..

    In any case, previous to this election, popular opinion has been against the EC for awhile. Personally, I have been against the EC (and much of the way the US does elections) long before this election was over and will continue to be until it changes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  18. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    First Past the Post has nothing with PR.

    First Past the Post is a method by which you determine the winner within a particular group of voters.

    You can have EC with individual states using FPTP (which is what currently happens, largely). Note that within each state that uses winner take all, it is also basically State-Wide Popular Vote using FPTP.

    And you can have Popular Vote with the winner determined by FPTP.

    The alternatives to FPTP is not PV, but rather things like Ranked Choice Voting:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting

    Argument against the EC:


    Argument against FPTP and for some form Alternative Vote:
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
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  19. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Probably a series of appeals until it is decided by the Supreme Court, like in 2000:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2000

    "Litigation in select counties started additional recounts, and this litigation ultimately reached the United States Supreme Court."

    As for how people feel about it... as with every US election, approximately half the country thinks they got screwed.

    2 party system ftw!
     
  20. profhulk

    profhulk Forum Royalty

    Wow hilarious. Trump wins and suddenly all declare he must have cheated as riots erupt in the streets. I doubt that this kind of enthusiasm to recount hillary's votes would have occured if she won. The MSM and a large portion of this country lost the election for Hillary. That damn electoral college. Well Hillary should of won lets recount.
     
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