Lament is run, Bureaucrat was actually considered OP on release and got nerfed a bit. Guardian of the Circle could get +1 SPD, though I think I'd want to give it to him at a discount since I don't think people would play him at 76 nora. Maybe remove Pace (since that is pseudo-SPD anyway). I can see Solstice swapping Immunity: Frost for +1 SPD, which puts him at 69 nora.
In any case, KF champs either benefit by having +1 SPD for free, or being 8 nora cheaper than they would otherwise be. You can think of it in either direction. Likewise, with any other stat based faction bonus. ST champs either get +10 HP for free, or are ~5 nora cheaper than they would otherwise be. You can think of it in either direction. I personally consider the FF KF bonus when looking at the base SPD of the units. This is an approach that's been consistent for a long time, and hasn't changed recently. If KF is actually slower recently, then that is just a byproduct of the type of runes they have been getting, not any specific plan to slow down KF or tone down SPD in KF. Personally, when I look at the KF runes with the FF bonus in mind, I consider KF faster still, but I understand some people think we should only look at the base SPD stats in this consideration. And the KF/X situation is particularly a problem in this regard. That said, I will try and see what I can to do make KF "feel" faster either with higher base SPDs or with other abilities that give that idea. Hope that helps.
I got my answers way back, for which I'm very gratefull. Thanks for all the time, great input! I remember running Emo Mages at 7 speed with similar set of abilities at 70 nora? Not sure what made him cost more. That +1 speed in case of melee without any real defensive abilities makes a big difference. Yep, remove pace from the guy, give him +1 speed, something like protective could replace shatter, or better yet give him attack frost instead, this way the dude could be used in ST splits.
No. There are different reasons for implementing mechanics. Gap closers is important for melee-centric themes/runes/factions, so some runes have those abilities. It's not about SPD in that case typically. In the case of Dimension Door vs Delim Portals, for example, Dimension Door is restricted to a theme within UD - the minotaurs, who have limited range as a core tenet and are largely melee or short range. On the other hand, Delim Portal and Slipstream Fulcrum in KF works for a much greater variety of runes, the former for Elves, and the latter for all. It doesn't, but it isn't the goal either. As I said, I deliberately added some of those mechanics to KF because aside from SPD, the discussion last time also touched on the fact that KF mechanics don't feel speedy either, and it seemed like a nice way of helping with the idea without KF being full of 8 SPD in FF either. Another thing to consider is that 8 SPD was reduced with the revamp across the board, and that may have hit KF more than some other factions (not sure though).
Lament was 6 SPD pre-revamp and probably quite OP: His SPD went down with the revamp and since he's been playable still I haven't touched him since. If I gave him these stats and abilities today, he'd cost 80 nora instead of 64. So yea. I don't think he should be fast, tanky, and high DMG at the same time. Right now he's designed to be a cheap tank with utility. Attack: Frost would be fine tho.
Oh, oops, I only counted one of the 2 upgrades (Demo Descant). If he got Slowing Armor also it'd be another +10 for 90 nora. So if he existed today, he'd be 90 nora (I'd probably give him some modifier for having so many high cost abilities, so let's say 85ish).. and he was running around at 64 back then. Such a different time
Next expansion (which I am working on now) is going to be tricky also in this regard as there are a bunch of KF/X runes coming, but it does mean I have to be more mindful of how they play in splits.
Our offensive runes have pretty reliably had 6 spd. We've seen quite a few support champs come in with 5 spd, but they are still outright strong in their role. the solstice archer is still decent. I really dislike comparing minos to KF. Minos have WAY higher damage, way higher hp, and are effectively faster than nearly any KF runes. Its like if every elf had deploy: epochal oasis as a racial trait. Phantom dash is a weak gap closer, lightseeker was an OP version that has been nerfed to be fairly balanced. Unfortunately Aurora Lancer has gone from originally OP to fairly balanced, to basically unplayable. His cost went up so much.
This is a very good thread. Fact is i have pointed this out in the past and as a result of this 'racism' against KF in general and some specific things i was running in particular i have kind of quit this game. Maybe it will be corrected in the futurr and i can come back. In regards of feeling of speed, its so wrong to even talk about this. Fact is KF always had one the least ap boost/movement boost in the game in the past which was kond of making up for the high speed. Now when KF became the new moga (cheap champs with mediocre speed), it became a very slow faction (below average) due to the lack of different ap/movent boosts. Also when comparing apeed in different factions, you need to consider actual movement. Lots of other factions have movement boost make up for the lack of +1 speed. For instance fs have leap, sp and fw have ap spells, sl have double attack spells etc. Look at the max movement per turn instead. last time i checkek, kf was one of the few factions who in ff do not have even one champ with movement over 8. Most other factions have at least one champ who can move 9 and i think some even have 10 move champs. Kf who was the teleport/magic faction does not even have any champ who can get the highest rank of teleport any longer! Im sorry but u simplified awau kf too much from the game. It took the flavour away and made the game booring. At least for me. And the step to make all maps similar was also a big step down. Before maps gave some variety. Sone good for rush, some for high speed, some for flyers, some for camping etc. Now its just booring. For me game became booring.
Perfect. 8 is a nice number, easily divisible by 2. Why not simply change the KF bonus to your champs costs 8/4 nora less and have +1/+0 Max AP. Then add +1 SPD to every KF unit. Problem solved. KF champs will cost exactly the same as they currently do, but can have the same base speeds as other faction's champs. No more need to pre-emptively lower a champ's speed to account for the KF bonus, and better yet KF will have a split faction bonus comparable to its FF bonus. Flavor-wise we'd no longer be the 'fast' speedy unit faction, but as of late that has not been our faction flavor anyways.
I've been saying similar for years. It's not about base speed. It's who can move the furthest in a turn and still double tap, and what the x2 value of that attacks totals. Minotaurs all effectively had +3 speed because Ddoor cost 2 and moved them 5 spaces. Then they had medium attack ranges, and several ranged activated abilities that dealt damage based on their incredibly high base damage. ST has comparable range to KF but higher base damage. Then there is obligatory knockback spells that knocks your guys out of position and 3 spaces into enemy range. Suddenly they have higher power turn damage potential. Also Swap Skywins were ******** when they all had initiative. Relocate demon works the same way in UD. Elven strategist used to be quite OP when he was cheap because he boosted damage AND had relocate foe. KF now has a few runnable champs with swap 3 now which is great. 8 spd archer with 8 damage is < 6 spd minotaur with 20 damage.
I was thinking about it. Sok, would it be plausible to swap the mobility font bonus with the +1 AP cap? So the full faction bonus would be Mobility and +1 Spd, with the font bonus being +1 max AP for 3 turns if you end your turn in your font/shrine zone. It's a subtle nerf that would somewhat reduce the 'bonus' AP that kf has available. Would highlight the swift-footed mobile aspect while letting us have the AP advantage when we're 'protecting our territory'. People's main gripe is that KF has too much reach having both +1 spd and +1 ap cap, right? This would take the offensive edge off of that. Basically that extra AP would only be available to save for 1 turn after you move out of your font zone. I don't know what nora cost you calculate the AP cap at, but mobility is 4. +1 spd being roughly 6-8 depending if the base spd is 5, 6, or 7. Split faction bonus just being Mobility to all champs. Seems like a solid enough bonus to enable splits. Poxbase says there are 6 KF champs with mobility, so minimal reworking of runes required. Probably need to adjust domain: vegetation too though. Also this probably wouldnt enrage the KF player base like some of the other ideas did.
