The Pride has lost its Soul…. Poetic and to the point; also the premier problem facing the leoss when played as a “pure” BG with little to no out of race support. For the following critique of the leoss I will try to remain in the present world of Post revamp and keep comparisons to the past to a minimum. The Racial Pride and Soul abilities provide stat bonuses while within 4 spaces of a champ with the opposite ability. The major problem post revamp is the uneven distribution of base versus upgrade options of the ability. While an understandable argument can be made regarding the magnate since it has access to both abilities, either put all abilities on base or all on an upgrade chain. As a side effect of this situation soul bond is unplayable due to every champ has it on the same chain as the soul of ailur ability. Another issue is that this theme is highly reliant on a slow and expensive external buildup to achieve maximum potential output where as most other champs and some themes are typically cheaper and internally powerful (serpentor ardent and mino sentry for example). The overall costing seems to push the high side for what you get a bit much right now. There are a few options to fix this situation but the DOGs definitely needs to take a bit of a closer look at the costing of these champs and especially the racials involved in this theme. Option 1 This needs to happen regardless of how anything else with pride/soul abilities are handled. Soulbond needs to have the clause added that it counts as a soul of ailur champ for purposes of triggering the pride bonus. With the reduction of abilities on base this will end up being a lost ability option with out this change in a pure leoss bg. Option 2 Excluding the magnate, either put all the abilities on base or on upgrades. Both options cause problems. Either their costs get driven up if they are put on base(which I feel pride and especially soul seem expensive for what they give), or they have to choose between core abilities to the champ or a very situational racial. Either way a consistent solution needs to be reached. Option 3 A rework of how the ability functions should be considered. For example, only give a scattering of champs the ability. Along with this, invert how the ability works and adjust the costs of the champs as appropriate. To use pride as an example: Old Pride: when this champ is within 4 spaces of a champ with soul this champ gains +4 dam. New Pride: friendly leoss without pride within 4 spaces of this champ gain +4 dam. These are changes that would maintain the pride/soul flavor but turn it into thematic abilities versus a haphazardly distributed racial. This would also clean up many issues with some champs ability count in the process. It is of course what I find to be the best solution, but feel free to disagree. There may be other options to cure the problems with the racial, but these are the only seemingly valid ones I could come up with. The Champs For the most part nearly every champ kept its flavor and role and kudos on that DOG. However there are a few glaring exceptions where some have a new role or redesign for the worse. To be fair there are also a few nice reworks. One thing that nearly every champs suffers from is the lack of options on the upgrade chains. There isn’t much customization to be had beyond choosing ranks of an ability on most champs and at least one of those abilities is counterproductive to the function of the champ. Please adjust each champ so that at least one chain has variety in the ability choices even if all the abilities are similar in role. The other huge issue facing the post revamp champ is the nearly complete lack of defensive abilities. Yes the damage needed toning down, as well as the mobility and speed of the theme. However the crowd control options and defensive abilities are what keeps high cost champs alive when they are typically outnumbered 5-3. Post revamp nearly every CC option was removed and most defensive abilities as well. These will need to be addressed to return the theme to a truly viable level. Its ok to design a mini super champ theme with over the curve costed champs as long as the stats and abilities allow it to survive the onslaught and in turn kill the enemy. The Heroes Overall both have interesting upgrade options and the flavor and design mesh well and keep in line with the original roles these champs filled. Hraken the Bloodbow: cost 94 to 100 nora He is still powerful and has similar stats and design compared to PreVamp and is worth his cost with the exception being that he doesn’t fit in a full leoss BG. This is due to the fact that deep wounds and pride are on the same upgrade chain. If hostile and deep wounds changed places on the upgrade chains then he would be in a prime spot as the go to hero since he is one of the few ranged beaters. Hostile and pride provide similar buffs so there is less of an impact at the inability to take both. Currently I wouldn’t run him in a pure leoss BG because the loss of deep wounds for pride is a huge hit to out put and efficiency. Cost revamp 83 - 89 Current Cost: 84-89 Mosharn the Barricade: cost 84 to 92 nora For the fact that he is supposed to be the greatest warrior, he feels lack luster to me. My first issue is that hold the line is on an upgrade chain and his special equipment is designed around him holding the line. Moving that to base would be a step in the right direction. Realistically this means moving sentinel to the upgrade chain which is fine with his current range at only 1-2. It’s a relatively useless ability in this design. Even after holding the line, his range is only 1-3 and it will rarely proc since he is now one of the only tanks in theme and will be the prime target instead of his allies. At least with sentinel and hold the line swapping positions you can choose whether you want to be defensive or offensive with your free attacks provided by sentinel or cleave. Also readiness should be replaced by decapitating blow. It was his premier ability and its availability will be missed. Recost 69 - 77 Current Cost: 70-82 Leoss Magnate: cost 76 to 84 nora Ill include the magnate here since it has both pride and soul. I've tired various builds but no matter which way I go, I always decide there is something better to deploy. The 1 build which I decided on occasionally using is pride and regal presence. CA: ranged basically forces a combat build. Divine favor swapped with CA: ranged would provide a more balanced approach and not force a combat build but instead allow for either combat or support builds. Currently the champ is a hybrid combat support role and lacks focus. Recost 82 - 90 Current Cost: 81-84 Pride of Ailur champs These champs all have pride on base which makes deck design regarding these champs easier. However this is were there is the most room to improve for the leoss theme as a whole. The major problem is the lack of options in these upgrade chains. They are almost all just picking ranks of an ability. At most, only 1 chain should be ranks, the other should have a variety of abilities. The ones they got right Leoss Guardian: cost 66 to 79 nora A great cheap unit that is streamlined and efficient and capable of dipping below 70 nora. This is only champ where not having options doesn't bother me due to his cost efficiency. Recost 62 - 75 Current Cost: same Pantier Lurker: cost 77 to 85 This champ stayed true to original role and design and with 1 chain with variety there aren't many complaints for this champ assuming defile corpse works right. Recost 76 - 84 Current Cost: 75-82 The Almost right Bastion Remnant: cost 80 to 88 nora He used to be the premier tank for the leoss. However, losing evasive and 2 points of defense has turned him into a beater with warcry. Also the lack of variety on the upgrade chain is just plain boring for what was once a versatile champ. I think replacing ranks 1 and 2 of battlemaster with evasive 2 and CA: melee at least open up options to tank again or to enhance his beater role more. Overall its not a bad rune but its boring and losing the ability to tank hurts the theme significantly. Recost 72 - 80 Current Cost: 70-80 Bloodmane Ravager: cost 77 to 87 nora An effective design but the loss of both evasive and reflexes coupled with a def of 0 makes this guys a one hit wonder. Not to mention, impatient means he is half dead by the time he makes it to combat. I do like the rend tree but maybe replace rend 3 with scrapper so it can survive combat once it gets there. Remember we need and want at least 1 chain with variety so we can actually customize something besides the cost of the rune. Recost 68 - 78 Current Cost: same Chirai Outrunner: cost 81 to 86 One of the better champs to keep flavor role and design and the only current viable cc option with pin down. Leap provides an interesting option to replace mountaineer but just seems off to me considering its use in combat maneuvering capabilities. Perhaps change the leap chain to include mountaineer, leap 2, and initiative 1 instead. This would allow a little variance but provide similar effects in game play. Recost 78 - 85 Current Cost: 78-87 Jaguar Arcannis: cost 76 to 84 nora Replacing fire bomb with flame strike is a great direction for the champ. However the lack of a basic atk is still killing this champ. It was my only real complaint from the soko mini revamp. Keep the range 1 (or go 2-3 if you don’t want it as versatile) but replace channel damage with a basic magic atk which is a damage type the theme needs more options for. Recost 69 - 77 Current Cost: 56-66 Leoss Boarder Patrol: cost 83 to 96 nora A good redesign but the 2 problems are that its too expensive for what it does and detection is over done in theme. Replace detection with leap 3 and replace the leap chain with something like declare target, domain vegetation, and escape or something like that just so we feel like we are getting a choice in options. Or just replace detection with declare target. Recost 75 - 88 Current Cost: same Leoss Druid: cost 77 to 92 nora A very simple champ yet very expensive to be playable. The major drawback is the low damage for the cost and role, it should have a base damage of about 11 to be viable in that price range. Another option leoss diehards have been asking for, for a while now, is to have entangling attack as an upgrade option. I think it would work in nicely in place of heal mass 1 and perhaps natures blessing 2 to replace heal mass 2. Current Cost: same Pantier Headhunter: cost 72 to 89 nora A good option for running with an efficiency build and overall a good rune. The only down side is poison doesnt proc with assassinate and doesnt mesh with the playstyle of the rune. The champ is also very squishy and replacing poison with tough, evasive or some other defensive ability would make for a better rune. Recost 69 - 86 Current Cost: 67-84 Soul of Ailur Champs These are the champs that cause the most frustration in theme. Most have soul on an upgrade chain combined with very vanilla champ design and conflicting placement of options. The ones they got right Leoss Monk: cost 69 to 78 nora One of the best support runes there are for either IS or ST. The only tweak that i could ever see as feasible is to move soulbond to the same chain as divert and righteous shield, otherwise it will never get picked. Recost 62 - 71 Current Cost: same The almost right Blue Fist: cost 73 to 77 nora Vanilla is the only way to describe this champ. It is effective and worth running but the placement of abilities and the layout of the upgrade chains is just boring. I would recommend putting supercharged 2 on base and then put Ki Strike, wizard foe, and dodge 2 on that upgrade chain. It keeps true to the original design of the rune but allows for customization choices. Just do something to improve the layout of this rune. Recost 70 - 74 Current Cost: same Red Fist: cost 73 to 77 nora Vanilla is the only way to describe this champ. It is effective and worth running but the placement of abilities and the layout of the upgrade chains is just boring. I would recommend putting supercharged 2 on base and then put Ki Strike, warrior foe, and block 2 on that upgrade chain. It keeps true to the original design of the rune but allows for customization choices. Just do something to improve the layout of this rune. Isn't it funny how this review is so similar to the blue fist review. Revamp 70 - 74 Current Cost: same Jaguar Architect: cost 73 to 80 nora He is still a viable combat option and even after the revamp tone down doesnt suck. However, mason is a pointless ability on him. If you want to give him a utility option remove mason , give him shatter back (which shouldnt have been removed to begin with since the leoss lack utility options), and move relocate relic to this chain. Even with only 2 options in each chain it makes him more versatile and viable than his current build. Recost 73 - 80 Current Cost: same Paragon of Ailur: cost 62 to 66 nora His design has been very subpar since he was released and it still is. It occasionally found a place in soulbond decks with heal mass but since that is unfortunately gone he is just blah... I dont even see a way to fix him. Recost 62 - 66 Current Cost: 61-64 Wall of Ailur: cost 86 to 94 nora He is way over priced for his stat line, meaning he needs at least another few points of damage. On top of that defender being an upgrade when it has defender as part of hold the line is redundant. To enhance his tankiness I would recommend putting block 1 in the readiness spot on the first chain and then put readiness in place of defender on chain 2. Also make both the LE and EXO versions the same. It isnt exactly a good rune right now but he doesn't suck even though shroud is the only reason to run him. Recost 76 - 84 Current Cost: 78-86 Ward of Ailur: cost 72 to 78 nora This is one of the more wonky redesigns. It feels like you were putting all the left over abilities from the blue fist on this champ. Sunder combined with multi atk is nice. However, defensive strike doesn't belong on this champ. It doesn't apply sunder or get the ap discount of multi atk. Mulit atk 1/2 replacing upgrade chain 1 with equalize moved to base would be an ideal redesign. However, no matter what direction is taken, defensive strike needs to go. Recost 72 - 78 Current Cost: same The Costs Do you get what you pay for? I included the price ranges for the champs to discuss this point. It is a hard question to answer. For some champs very much yes, especially for those on the more efficient low cost side. For some you get close enough to fair costing because the champ fits you style choices and you don't mind the minor bumps in ideal efficiency. For others absolutely not, whether its a mid cost beater or a high end tank or a sandbagged hero. The price range is less important in this discussion than the value of the rune. All I will ask is that DOG take a closer look at costing (Which as I've been working on this post I know they have announced that they are tweaking the algorithm) but also look at the base stats after words and ensure that they are inline with what that champs role is and the expense it takes to field that champ.
I agree with your recommendations for the most part. The prices have changed since your original post, so Leoss is not quite as expensive as a whole anymore. However, the problem with vanilla upgrade choices is quite popular along many champions, not just Leoss. I do agree it would be much better if the choices of at least one of the upgrade paths can provide different abilities to provide variety to your battlegroups and the second can be ranks of the same ability. I really do think champions that have only two different abilities with different ranks do not provide versatility that would help so many themes. Ward of Ailur needs Defender back. I would like to see one upgrade path as Defender, Motivate, Defensive Strike. This way you can choose to have him help your group defense, personal defense or offense. Upgrade path 2 could be either Immunity: Psychic, Equalize, Impenatrabile or even ranks of Evasive. This would really give him versatility and keep his flavor text true as a Protector of Ailur. Wall of Ailur needs Defender (3) replaced on upgrades as it is redundant as you said since he has it with Hold the Line on base. Replace it with Stunning Sweep, which it had on base prior to the revamp. I would also change around the upgrades, put Stun, Stunning Sweep and Block (2) on the same path and put Readiness, Shroud and maybe Cleave in the other slot. This way you can use him as either offensive (Stun or Stunning Sweep in one slot and Cleave in the other, or personal defense with Block (2) and Readiness, or group defense with Shroud. Also agree they need to make the Exo and LE the same. Paragon of Ailur: See here http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/paragon-of-ailur-proprosed-changed.4675/ That's all I have for now. But you get the idea. This type of thinking would help the game as a whole. As I said, many champions need this type of thinking. Versitility is key. Now that would be awesome, IMHO.
I updated the original post to track the cost changes. Despite a lack of upgrade options I feel it did a lot to bring the theme inline with a closer to proper costing. Remnant, ravager, and headhunter I feel are in a great spot and nearly spot on for what they offer. Versatility aside I like where they are now. Hraken, arcanis, red/blue fist, and the wall are definitely better off now but they still sorely need some ability modification still. Outrunner, druid, architect, paragon and ward weren't really affected by the recording and still mostly need ability tweaks. The druid is still overcosted though. The two champs that were broken by the Recost were the magnate and mosharn. The magnate is completely unrunnable at that price on top of the design flaws. And mosharn is way too cheap now and still needs some ability shuffling.
Perhaps ability recosting will bring them all more in line with their strengths. This recosting update was only for stats, not abilities, right? Hopefully the ability recosting is just around the corner. What about Leoss Border Patrol, who has been too costly or vanilla for what he brings to the theme? What about adding Mark? Hidden: Vegetation matches the image, so keep that on base, I like that. I disagree about Detection, I like it on him. I also liked Escape, which was on his pre-vamp build. Other abilities I can see that might work are Font Blessing (border patrol), or one of the de-equipment abilities such as Shatter, Snatch or Pilfer, Retreat or maybe even Sentry?
I'm actually thinking of playing leoss for the first time, your post-revamp analyses on leoss racial have just saved me 2-3hours of zombiestaring poxbase and forums. thank u Btw, I've never tried playing leoss and is slightly interested. What do u guys use for relocations? On the top of my head its I'd use Instill Panic + Gale. Would you say its wise to skip Hideout and Swap?
I only use gale personally although ferren hideout is useful too it's just not my style. If you go stealth heavy then swap or panic work well also. Try starting with 2 gales and the hideout and tweak as fits your style.
I dislike Mark at least on base cuz it too situational with a passive stealth of hidden. Declare target may not be the best alternative but it's a consistent bonus
I'm not too crazy about Jangar Arcanis without a basic attack. He can only attack two out of every three turns. Keeneye Crown doesn't work on him either. If you put in something like a Heavy Crossbow then he would have an extra attack, right? However, that makes him more expensive and uses up an extra rune slot. I think I would rather run two Architects, two Druids and two Magnates.
Flamestrike is only CD 2 so he is still attacking once a turn. However I strongly feel he should get a basic atk in place of channel dam if only at range 1 even if his cost does go up some. I normally run HBV anyway so arcanis makes a decent target for that as well. But magnate is just too disjointed and expensive for me to run.
@Markoth I know leoss aren't your top priority but here are some suggestions for tweaks for the theme as a whole.
@Sokolov You are interested in analysis of different themes per your I'm back announcement. This is another last ditch effort to get some love shown to leoss. And welcome back.
Well, I agree with the most part. But Mosharn is fine as he is. Decapitating Blow will only increase his cost, and thats not what he need. Also, sentinel is usefull for leoss, since they lack in range options, when holding the line, Mosh can protect them very well. Just need to remember, that leoss is not a rush or UD like bg... yes, they have great status, but they are expensive, and need to build up an little army to be effective, so standing in a position, and holding it for a while it's the ebst strategy for them. Saying this, you can see, Mosh is very good for what he is intended to do, hold the enemies until you can advance.
@Ifem21 You obviously weren't around to witness the destruction of flavor and play style of the leoss during the revamp. Most champs were originally very rushy and tough. Mosh was originally 1-3 before hold the line and remnant was the tank that allowed sentinel to proc. Now mosh is the tank everything hides behind which is prohibitive of sentinel proc'ing. That isn't to say some aspects of the theme didn't need toning down but they are crippled right now and a completely different play style is required to even have a hope of victory. I only ever play a random game with them for nostalgic reasons not because they are viable. Also if you notice I recommended putting decapitation blow on an upgrade tree with sentinel and cleave and remove readiness which is a useless never taken option and the entire reshuffle only increases the base cost 2 Nora on a borderline too cheap hero. Besides which his hero equip requires you to take hold the line which another reason why it should be base and not an upgrade.
Yeah, never played them until revamp, so don't know how they are before. But I see your point, and well, you're right, if they have changed the entire playstyle of a theme, that's really sad, and need to be fixed. About Mosh, yes, he need to Hold the Line, but a lot of champs have the same problem, just see Kiergana, her equip gives paralitic strike, her ability line too, making it a little awkard. Hope they fix them all with the ronin, but dont know if all will be changed.
I would really like to see Paragon of Ailur revamped. Broken record reminder. http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/paragon-of-ailur-proprosed-changed.4675/
Ive updated the post with the current cost ranges for the ability recosting/rebalancing that sokolov pushed through recently. it really changed the viability of a few champs but here is where the leoss currently stand.
