Discussion in 'Gameplay Discussion' started by GabrielQ, Feb 15, 2014. GabrielQ Well-Known Member I started this thread to discuss about arctic and the impact it has on gameplay, and I will give a proposition I think will help to solve the issue, I hope this discussion may be constructive and with many voices. The ability arctic can be divided into three effects: a) This unit may not become frozen or chilled, this is important for spells like frostbite if this unit is a champion... b) This unit has icewalker (This unit ignores movement restrictions and penalties imposed by snow and ice) c) This unit has ready (at the end of your turn, this unit gains 1 AP) while occupying snow or ice. The main problem with the ability is the last effect, that lead to a great number of ST units being able to move 8 or more spaces the turn after they are deployed and this is a critical advantage when it comes to capture fonts. The first portion of the ability has, in my opinion, a negative impact, mostly in mirror matches but can be of impact in others aswell, this is a very minor case of the problem that boon of the undead has with disease: immunity, it can be ignored for now I think. The second effect is the most important one and allows the ST units to not be affected by a great number of terrain alteration effects present in the faction. Also has to be noted, that while the snow coming from the deployment zones is the most important at the time of increasing the speed of the champions, snow and ice are also prominent in the two savage tundra maps, and there are many abilities and spells that are capable of generating big amount of them for cheap, abilities like ice veil and spells like ice storm generate big patches of ice, that not only gives ready to arctic champions but also debuffs non-flying, non artic champions with -1 speed, wich makes the speed gap between arctic and non arctic champions bigger. What I propose, is splitting arctic in two ranks: rank one, that would be on most champions, includes effects a and b, and the rank two would include the arctic clause and would be used on particular champions, like the ones with 5 base speed, the abilities would read, eliminating the unnecesary keyword icewalker to make things clearer, and that only appears on abilites that would be modified here and in terraform: ice, that is found in the ice wurm, that could use a revamp. Arctic (Rank 1): This unit may not become frozen of chilled and ignore movement restrictions and penalties of moving over snow or ice. Arctic (Rank 2): This unit may not become frozen or chilled and ignore movement restrictions and penalties of moving over snow and ice, this unit gains ready (...) while occupying snow and ice. With most champions with arctic rank 1, the speed problems of meta champions will be solved, and with the possibility of arctic rank 2 to use in champions designed to work with terrain generation, another variation of battlegroups becomes viable. Now, supporting the changes: The two main abilities that work with arctic are orb of frostfall and arctic gift, that read currently: Orb of frostfall: Champions within 4 spaces have trail: snow (impeding 1). If the champions is friendly, it also gains arctic I propose it to be changed to: Champions within 4 spaces have trail:snow. If the champion is friendly it gains a rank of arctic. It could be spread a little more and allowed to stack. Arctic gift: The next 4 champions deployed or summoned have arctic, ice veil and domain: snow. This spell is used ussually when there are present non-arctic champions but this lead to a problem, the ice generated by veil severely debuffs non-arctic champions making the spell a dead slot if you were forced by your draws to deploy a non-arctic champion before it was revealed. The only solution to this is making the spell preordained but this could make the spell too powerful, and you can't simply increase the cost, because if you cannot use it and summon a champion in the first turn it's worthless. So, there is the alternative for me: Keeping the current effect, changing arctic for arctic (rank 2) and reducing the number of champions affected by 1, so the price per champion increases a little, and you'd have to devote two slots to give all your champions the effect while deploying 1 champion per turn. GabrielQ, Feb 15, 2014 #1 only Well-Known Member I wood like that Icewalker ability would be just implented description of Arctic. as "Waterwalker" is in Amphbious, as Lavawalker is in Terraform: Lava... the same could be done for tons of abilities. Flight and Sentry for instance. if there would be some high patch with tons of nerfs, I think Ready removed from Arctic could be substitude instead of quite big amount of units. highly recommend to post such a thread in general discussions though! only, Feb 15, 2014 #2 Last edited by only, Feb 15, 2014 GabrielQ Well-Known Member Asked for this to be moved from ST forums, thanks mods and bumping GabrielQ, Feb 15, 2014 #3 Baskitkase Well-Known Member Needlessly overcomplicating a very simple issue. Remove ready from arctic, change IS font bonus (maybe pass out a few +speed buffs/upgrade options where necessary). Frostfall interaction is fine. Ice from Ice Storm could be either 2 or 4 turns of duration, shouldn't be 6. Not sure if you mentioned that or not. Baskitkase, Feb 15, 2014 #4 GabrielQ Well-Known Member Baskitkase said: ↑ “Needlessly overcomplicating a very simple issue. Remove ready from arctic, change IS font bonus (maybe pass out a few +speed buffs/upgrade options where necessary). Frostfall interaction is fine. Ice from Ice Storm could be either 2 or 4 turns of duration, shouldn't be 6. Not sure if you mentioned that or not.” I may have written a long post, but the idea could be resumed in "remove ready from arctic, avoid the minor problems this may bring with the less effort" Simply removing ready from arctic would make orb of frostfall and arctic gift useless. Didn't mentioned the duration of ice storm, but I agree it should be reduced. GabrielQ, Feb 15, 2014 #5 yobanchi Active Member Or you could have ready only granted from ice terrain. This avoids the font snow from granting it but allows it still to be viable with ice generation. Ice is more connected to sped anyway and snow is more for impeding which is covered by walker. BAM yobanchi, Feb 15, 2014 #6 JazzMan1221 Active Member GabrielQ said: ↑ “Simply removing ready from arctic would make orb of frostfall and arctic gift useless.” This is not true. Orb's main use is to impede the opponent's non-Arctic units through the creation of deep snow. Likewise, Arctic Gift would still give a notable stat buff, as well as create a huge area of ice to slow opposing champs. Simply removing Ready is the best strategy IMO. The IS font bonus could easily be changed to something more interesting. Perhaps make it so that the opponent cannot deploy units (i.e. relics) in the IS font zone, or have it grant Tough 1 for X turns, or make it grant Enlightened to any champions within it. There are plenty of opportunities here. JazzMan1221, Feb 15, 2014 #7 Lokiswara likes this. Shadap Active Member JazzMan1221 said: ↑ “Orb's main use is to impede the opponent's non-Arctic units through the creation of deep snow.” I know this was the case when it was global but is it still the case? Shadap, Feb 15, 2014 #8 GabrielQ Well-Known Member Are you saying that creating deep snow is more important that AoE4 rallying cries? GabrielQ, Feb 16, 2014 #9 Last edited by GabrielQ, Feb 16, 2014 Baskitkase Well-Known Member You'd just manually add ready to frostall in its range of effectiveness. It's not used right now in most decks so that gives you an idea of he power of first turn ready and mid game ready. Baskitkase, Feb 16, 2014 #10 HsssH Member I would second the idea of "remove ready from arctic". If some champ absolutely needs ready to be viable he can receive it as separate ability "ready: ice/snow", no? HsssH, Feb 16, 2014 #11 GabrielQ Well-Known Member HsssH said: ↑ “I would second the idea of "remove ready from arctic". If some champ absolutely needs ready to be viable he can receive it as separate ability "ready: ice/snow", no?”have you read the OP? this is exactly what I'm proposing, just a bit more elegant. GabrielQ, Feb 16, 2014 #12 Lokiswara Member I'd say similar problems with IS.... BOTH FACTIONS are supposed to be more defensive (+HP, and dorfs LR bombardments + healing what have you)... The keyword "Ready" kidna ruins everything. Simply removing Arctic from ST's font bonus seems a bit too harsh. Icewalker and whatnot is very unimportant. Whereas SP get spell res and Def for 4 turns... UD is anti stealth... Fw is anti spell... FS heals... IS & ST should have similar distinguished font bonuses. Here's my proposition: ST Font Bonus: Focus on defense Remove Ready. 1]This unit may not become frozen or chilled, [2]Icewalker, [3] Snow Camouflage [4] (TERRAIN) At the end of every 6th turn, spaces adjacent to this font (and spaces generated by this font) becomes snow. When this font is contested, at end of turn, and the end of each turn thereafter, this terrain manipulation effect ends on the most recently affected spaces). This terrain manipulation allows for midgame rush via Tunnel: Snow/Ice. And Snow Camouflage encourages ST to play more slowly and building up their forces as opposed to just RUSH ALL DAY ERRYDAY. Some champs should have Ready: Snow on their base like Strig Galerider/Frostwing Glaive that benefits from having 8 SPD on turn 1. IS Font Bonus: Remove Ready. NO RELICS CAN BE DEPLOYED (Jazzman's idea is superb. FW= antispell, IS= antirelic, UD=antistealth) Lokiswara, Feb 17, 2014 #13 GabrielQ Well-Known Member Lokiswara, please note that ready comes with arctic, and the fact that the ST deployment zones are covered with snow, and not from the bonus itself. The ST font bonus is savage damage, temporary +2 damage. I think that changing the IS font bonus would require a revision of every theme to give some speedy units to those with 6 and below units. GabrielQ, Feb 17, 2014 #14 Lokiswara Member oh sry m,y bad I mean, yea remove Ready from Arctic's sub effect, and the font bonus should get that little jiffy I proposed. as for IS, I think some would need speed buffs, but overall, Ready should also be removed Lokiswara, Feb 17, 2014 #15 HsssH Member GabrielQ said: ↑ “have you read the OP? this is exactly what I'm proposing, just a bit more elegant.”I did read the OP, I don't see how having one ability with multiple ranks (that can be increased with relics/spells/potentially future release champions) and three different effects is more elegant. HsssH, Feb 17, 2014 #16 badgerale Member I've been saying to remove ready for ages. Apart from all the good balance reasons, it just doesn't make sense. Why would an arctic champ in snow be faster than a non-arctic one on grass (assuming there are no skis involved). badgerale, Feb 17, 2014 #17 GabrielQ Well-Known Member HsssH said: ↑ “I did read the OP, I don't see how having one ability with multiple ranks (that can be increased with relics/spells/potentially future release champions) and three different effects is more elegant.”The current ability has three effects already, that was just an analysis, my proposal is rank 1 without ready and rank 2 with ready, so you don't have to add ready to particular champions or create snow: ready ability, you just add 1 more rank of arctic to those units. GabrielQ, Feb 17, 2014 #18 HsssH Member I haven't actually seen anyone claiming that arctic is elegant or well designed ability so I'm not sure how its relevant that currently it has 3 effects attached to it. In my opinion ranks make sense when ability is same on all levels but is more efficient at higher ones. For example resistance: x, all ranks do the same thing, difference is percentage. You might be aware of only exact numbers on rank 2, but by just looking at ability and its level you'll know what it does and that its slightly more/less efficient than rank 2 without even reading description or making calculations. What you are proposing is essentially creating something like "Fire tolerance" where first 3 levels would be like fire resistance, level 4 would be fire immunity and level 5 would be fire eater. Heck, at least in this case we could say that level 4 is 100% resistance and level 5 is 150% resistance. What ties exactly frozen immunity, icewalker and ready: snow/ice have? Outside of all three being attached to current version of arctic and dealing with snow/ice - none. If we really wanted to be elegant here we would probably merge frozen and chilled into one ability (as was suggested by yobanchi in thread about dots), remove arctic from the game and give immunity: frozen, icewalker and ready: snow/ice to champions that need them. HsssH, Feb 17, 2014 #19 Last edited by HsssH, Feb 17, 2014
I have read all the posts and i think the idea GabrielQ posted is pretty solid. I support this ideas, but my concern is that a lot of Savage tundra champions are designed with the knowledge that they will get Artic anyway. So in the design speed is automatically lowered. If this change would be implemented, i would advise to carefully reasess every champion. But an argument against this would be, the "ready" only apply the first turn. The second turn the font is not yet capped and will not give you the ap from "ready" if your not already on ice or snow. So the AP gain in the capping stage of the game is not consistent, so comparing every 7 speed ST champion with a fontcapping champion from an other faction which can consistently produce 8+ ap through either ability or just speed would be unwise. If the speed of savage tundra champions is prenerfed because of artic, after implementing the change with consistent snow and ice available, this would mean that the action radius off all savage tundra champions with arctic 1 would be 1 square per turn lower then there counterpart in an other faction. This would hurt the faction a lot considering all factions are balanced out with every faction there pros and cons.
Ice walker OP. see ice and ice fall out for my reasoning on this. (Even though i called it Arctic instead of ice walker)
Thanks for your feedback! I think a idea like this cannot be introduced without making a massive rebalance, that's why I think that inherent faction unbalances that can affect rune design should be treated now, all at the same time to avoid problems, this includes FW bonus (too weak), IS font bonus, Arctic in st, KF bonus,etc. and then with the rebalance, the relative power between faction should be restored (for example, boghoppers are meta because they have reliable 8 speed drops with augur and tide master for example, with the new changes, that should be revisited)
how many of these players actually use savage tundra as opposed to playing against if you use ST you would realize like frostwing said many champs are designed with the expectation that they will have the speed boost from ready removing ready from the arctic ability will then require the revamping of 150+ champions, you guys are also calling for the changing of the effects of spells. The ranks of arctic could work but that would still require a reevaluation of all ST champs and the IS font ability should be looked at as well if we do plan on removing arctic (A few of you have suggested this)
A funny things i thought of ... When a champion loses ready but gains +1spd it actually becomes stronger because its ap cap becomes greater making the thread range from its position greater with 1 square. In turn the opponent has to be more careful not to end its turn in the thread range which effectively decrease the its thread range next turn of 1 square. Inexperienced players will put their champions in harms way to net the maximum amount of AP. All arctic champions can move till they have 3 ap left to have full ap next turn while occupying snow or ice.
I disagree. Tho ice veil def does a lot to cover a bunch of the map in ice, and make getting that 1 AP easier, its not a guaranteed 1 ap. The player either has to include extra runes like Arctic Gift or Orb of Frostfall (which is a cost in itself) if they want semi consistent Ready gains. There is also a modicum of skill required to keep your units in the snow or ice unless you are fighting "near" your deployment zones. Reworking tons of ST units to add speed to them in place of ready would be gross and make them stronger for no reason, and taking it away would gimp a lot of the runes, and ruin a fun play style all at the same time. If we are going to look at the AP gain from this and IS font, then we need to start considering how to also nerf the most OP rune in the game, Mobility.
