I think this is a right moment to continue with the discussion of the KF bonus, it brings problems at the moment of splitting and this makes the game less diverse and forces themes like treefolks to stay confined wthin the faction. Several KF champions have a base speed of 5 and for me that's clear evidence of prenerf and that shows there is a problem with the bonus. This discussion should not be about the powerlevel of the faction or particular runes but towards getting a bonus that can be compared with the others in term of power. This is the thread from the last time: https://forums.station.sony.com/poxnora/index.php?threads/kf-bonus-discussion.99367/ My last proposal is this: FF Bonus: +2 AP cap Split Bonus: +1 AP cap Deployment zone bonus: All friendly champions inside this deployment zone gain mobility, +1 Max RNG -1 Min RNG for 3 turns at the end of their turn And it includes a faction wide rebalance to address the important power change. I think that this bonus is comparable in power to the others and that the font bonus will add more personality to the faction in general, giving champions defending a font a edge with the possibility to bypass range or melee defenses on the attacking champion with the temporal mobility and range change.
This is an excellent time to bring this up (maybe something will be done, finally?). It is generally accepted that the strength of KF's FF bonus actually makes KF/XX split decks pretty poor. This is due to the fact that a champion in KF has been designed to have +1 SPD and, outside of FF KF, the speed loss is very noticeable. KF/XX decks can work but what one notices is that, predominantly, the 15 runes for KF tend to be spells/relics/equips and the actual champs played come from the other faction. To be more clear, +1 AP storage is an okay split bonus for non-KF champs in a KF/XX split but the -1 SPD KF champs receive in a KF/XX split make KF champs much less competitive. Also, it is generally accepted that KF's split bonus is not close to being half the power of the FF bonus (though it is hard to quantify, of course). The other factions have bonuses that are easily split whereas KF's in not easy to split fairly. One of the main reasons nothing has been done about the bonus in the past is that, of course, every champion in KF would have to be adjusted if the bonus is changed. Changing the KF bonus should happen, in my opinion, but it would be a big undertaking.
I think this would be an excellent set of bonuses (assuming a faction-wide revamp would be done to re-adjust speeds and costs). A revamp would be needed because, over the course of the last 2-3 years of Pox development, KF has been given, on average, the slowest set of champions of any faction because it was assumed the champs would gain +1 SPD.
Also, hopefully the devs will read the posts found in the previous thread (link provided in the GabrielQ's post at top) before the SOE Forums go away. A lot of good info there.
Nice and simple. One question. Would this require many of the 5 speed champs in KF to have their speed buffed to 6? That's not clear from your suggestion.
yes it does, basically every 5 speeder will get his speed upgraded to 6, but some others runes may find his speed bumped also.
I know it's been said before, but now that we're here in the D.O.G. forums, I'll say it again. But first, I'm not stating that this is the BEST solution. I am, however, stating that this is the easiest solution to the problem in it's current state. A *truly* simple solution. Keep everything the way it is, but grant the KF champs (only) the +1 speed in splits. And if you all feel that the FF bonus should go up to +2 AP, so be it. But this would: a.) Solve the split problem without causing major changes or uproar in the community b.) Solve the problem of needing to revamp every champ in KF to account for the pre-nerf to speed c.) Give the devs some breathing room and time to do other things while keeping a KF revamp on the back burner (should it still even need to be addressed after this change).
Some random additions to this important conversation: 1) I am not sure that the KF bonus needs to change or not -- I like your suggestion, but am so used to the speed bonus (which is why I only play ff KF) that I might have a hard time adjusting. 2) I think a bigger concern is the fact that the other factions (particularly ST and IS) basically gain the KF bonus by default via their font/shrine bonuses. IS gains +1 AP at the beginning of any turn that any champ is in a font/shrine zone. Essentially, (assuming skillful play) an IS player will be getting +1 AP a significant percentage of the game for a significant percentage of their champs. That means that they get both the IS faction bonus AND the KF faction bonus. ST gains the +1 AP for arctic champs on snow, and they gain it at the end of the turn - not as immediately powerful as the IS font/shrine bonus, but more portable and in some ways more useful... again, they are getting both the ST bonus and (with skillful play) the KF bonus. I think it is more important in the short run to rebalance the faction/font/shrine bonuses... then address the KF issue. Gaining +1 max/-1 min range while in deployment zones is very, very powerful... might have to be careful with that. The description of the KF bonus in flavor text is "Your champs gain Reflexes" -- how about that being the faction bonus (reflexes, the ability), and +1 or +2 speed being the deployment zone bonus?
Full Faction Bonus: All friendly champions gain +1 Speed Split Bonus: All friendly champions with 5 Speed or less gain +1 Speed In full faction, all champs get a speed boost. In split decks, slow champs (from either faction) get a speed boost Thoughts?
I think our full-faction and font bonuses are fine, the problematic issue is the split bonus. I actually tend to Kinjo's idea: let all KF champs get their ff bonus and champs from other factions get +1 ap. I believe this would be a fair and easy change, without bringing anything out of line.
This would be very simple and solves some things, but I think that the bonus is still too powerful and it would still require prenerfing normal champions so any champion above 5 speed would be balanced in FF KF and underpowered in split, and that would hinder almost every split that is not treefolks or tortuns. Also, remember that the FF KF bonus includes the same +1 AP cap that the split has, and it adds to it the speed bonus.
This includes a mechanic change to the game, and it would accomplish the same as if every KF champ got +1 speed and didn't receive a bonus at all.
Remove all faction bonuses and work factional flare into design choices instead of a blanket bonus. KF wants faster units? Actually design units to have abilities that enhance speed, runes that augment speed directly either with buffs or debuffs, ways to add AP to give champion interaction on top of speed and of course just design faster units in and of themselves. Problem solved.
I really don't feel that it's a major problem ATM. The increase in max-AP is still useful. The best solution in this thread is the first one, posted by the OP. Increase the max-AP in FF by 2, and by 1 in SF. This is the least likely to unbalance the game. This would necessitate addressing the SPD of every single K'thir Forest champion, but it would be a fairly simple task. Tedious, but simple.
I'm not a fan of k'thir champs losing the +1 spd that is how they survive +2 ap sounds nice but ill take an 8 speeder any day. Plus so many factions have units that get the bonus 1 ap just for being in fonts, so really still won't encourage many splits to be run with k'thir. If so many unit's lost the +1 spd that would be like a nerf nuke for k'thir who relies on the hit and run to compete or spell spamming.
That idea hinged on a faction-wide look at speeds. Champions would have their speed and/or cost adjusted and then the faction bonus would change. If done right, the champs would be just as fast as they are now (with some exceptions, of course).
