I am sorry, I tried multiple times to read your whole post with the attention and care that it deserves, but after being interrupted three times by real life and my relatively short attention span I gave up. I appologize. I'll reply to the things that I caught while skimming through it. Feel free to completely ignore me if I say stupid things that were already covered in detail in your reply somewhere. You look at one rune, see the amplify frost and Icesnap synergy and state that it is clearly intended to be a frost amp rune. You look at the other rune, see three ice theme abilites and state that it's clearly a Endless Devotion rune. I still don't understand that. I can't decline that the Dragon is meant for a Devotion theme deck, at the same time I don't see why that should prevent it from being an ice theme thing as well. As stated before, I wouldn't move it to base at all in this case. I don't know about the other Crystal things but this one can be run perfectly fine in a devotion theme as it is. First of all, it was not meant to be an objective definition of the term sandbag. I stated it as a subjective perspective. I said it was a sandbag to me. I didn't state that it was a sandbag in general. The explanation marked with a * was also not meant to be a definition, but rather a fast attempt to explain it. If I could have Devotion or nothing on the Dragon, I'd pick nothing because Devotion has absolutely no desireable effect for me. In the examples you provited, for example the yeti thing.. if I could pick their racial or nothing, I'd pick the racial regardless of what deck I play because it can still serve as a situational damage boost and/or detection. So no, that wouldn't be a sandbag for me. The point of that was not to state that I'm against the ability being there or that I believe that it serves no use in general. I was just stating that there is also a different point of view where the Devotion Theme is not in the foreground. In my opinion the Dragon can currently work in both themes, as stated above. For the sake of diversity I'd like to keep it that way instead of trying to shoehorn it into a "more focused" Crystal Theme. Anyway, once again I apologize for not managing to read your whole reply. I was considering just dropping this and not replying anything at all but after you dedicated quite a bit of effort into addressing several things I have posted I thought it would be rude to just ignore it.
This is exactly how I would like him to be, 2-3 or 3-4 range and cone replaced with bolt. This would make him different than snap or hoarfrost. Why do you guys keep Maiden passive? With current formula, she can be 4-5 range magic 6-7dmg champ without nora increase... or if she remains passive go nuts on base abilities but keep cost ~70ish. Base Abilities: Arctic Cleansing Aura Hearten Heal Champion: 3 Prestige / Bastion of Mobility Divine 2 and Heal mass + Soothing on upgrades
well i'll be honest on detection with the dragon I really don't see it happening, but I could see him getting blood tracker. detection in it's base form is not something I like throwing around just because every single theme should have it, but that doesn't mean I don't like themes getting detection methods. if we play this dragon off as a hunter "blood tracker" fits him well.
Oh right, Combat Awareness only prevents nontarget damage. Awesome then Also it can open up future Bloodied synergies.
maybe in ud/st splits, the only place i could see bloodied synergies occurring in st would be with the cats in st who all the same fluff of being hunters. anyway it never hurts to have development options
well it was a fluff ability that is theme for a tracker/hunter, I've honestly always liked these one shot detect methods more then straight detect. by making his build more of a hunter build then it would fit him a bit better. this is mostly to differentiate him from just being a cheaper ice snap, give him a unique design.
really? in dnd they are amazing hunters, they have 120 m dark vision, scent ability to smell you, the magical abilities to see invisble creatures and magic itself which lets the evil one find adventurers with loot for the hoard, ridiculous flying speed so when they do see you you won't get away. when these things hunt for food or treasure your best bet is to hope you were never their. dragons in their tend to setup a lair and every night they simply go out hunting for food and things to add to their hoard, at least the ones that build hoards. at least originally alot of the concepts for pox were based on concepts from dnd, UD is based largely on the underdark and drow, kf is based on the wood elves and high elves, dwarves have a very similar style to dnd though after SOE took over it became a bit more like WOW dwarves.
You had me at "DnD". How I loved that game, and considering its been more than 20 years Ive played my first game of DnD, anything you say that mentions DnD will have my approval. You convinced me, sir.
I have to agree that Bloodtracker just doesn't fit. D&D Dragons have a whole host of other features that make Pox Nora Dragons seem like mere whelps. I'd consider Pox Dragons to be more on par with Drakes or Wyverns. There's also the fact that D&D Dragons usually have the ability to shapechange into humanoid forms. I don't think it's a healthy comparison to make given the sheer number of abilities that suddenly "make sense" for Dragons. I'd rather drop down to Detection 1 before trying to mix a hunter theme in with Frost Amp and Terrain. The problem with using pseudo detection on Ice Dragon is the abilities that provide it are already on champions we're trying to distinguish him from. Cold Snap (Frostfall Icewisp/Hoarfrost Dragon) and Frost Aura (Icesnap) are the most appropriate options, but they're already spoken for. There are exactly two champions across all the factions that are restricted to a single rank of Detection. To me, the real problem with Detection is that most champs are allowed to skip directly to rank 2/3 via multi-rank upgrade paths. Detection 1 is a small enough range that his reduced HP and shift to ranged combat would prevent you from aggressively seeking out stealthed champions. It would be a defensive detection method with a lower value than Detection 3 on a melee stealth champion like Yeti Scout whom also has Shatter. Whether or not vanilla Detection is an appropriate fit boils down to the context of the champion you're giving it to. In this situation, I think it's the best fit, even if we have to drop it to rank 1. This would cause overlap with Jakei Starseer who already has Prestige and a similarly ranged Magical base attack. I could see Bastion of Mobility being worked into Jakei Maiden's kit as an upgrade option, but I'm not sure what we'd drop for it..
for what it's worth drakes in DND are hutners as well, many dragon cults and goblinoid races train them much the same way they train hunting hounds. wyverns are again hunters but I can't think of the last time I've ever seen one trained. yes the dragons in POX pale in comparison to dnd dragons, mostly because everything you see on every dragon in pox could be done by a single dragon in dnd if it's old enough, they are just themed after the different aspects of dnd dragons.
Yes, but that's more in line with SL's Dragons. I don't appose Bloodtracker, in general, but it doesn't make sense in this situation.
I don't like the idea of Bloodtracker on Ice Dragon either, but I also don't approve of the idea to make any rune something something just because DND does it like that or whatever.
that was just in reply to pede saying that dragons weren't hunters, to me they are since those are the most familiar dragons to me. i'm really not even sure what dragons to reference in fantasy except those dragons.
I guess I'd prefer a frost version of static/sonic etc. greeting if an option of detection is required.
I think you need to define what you consider to be the "ice theme" before we can get any further with this part of our disagreement. "Ice theme" is vague enough that it could apply to all of ST given ice is one of their designated terrains. I categorize his abilities as (primarily) supporting the following themes: Attack: Frost (Frost Amp) Catalyst: Frost (Frost Amp) Endless Devotion (Crystal) Fascinating Luminescence (Crystal, but very flexible) Freezing Aura (Crystal after changes to Jakei Shaman and NKD; used to be Ferren/Savage Exploit) Frost Armor (Frost Amp) Trail: Crystal (Crystal) We agree he's a Crystal/Frost Amp champion, but the fact that Crystal is in his name, he has a Luminescence ability and he was originally released as part of the Endless Devotion group indicates he's Crystal theme first, Frost Amp second. This tells me you didn't click the link I included. Given your opening statement, I'll try to meet you halfway: Crystal Dragon Base = Fascinating Luminescence | Catalyst: Frost | Endless Devotion | Flight | Freezing Aura Upgrades = Ice Veil | Swoop | Bulwark: Jakei | Trail: Crystal He used to do everything you wanted while maintaining the option of using Trail: Crystal with Swoop. It may not seem like that has anything to do with the Crystal theme, but Trail: Crystal was designed for Crystal champs. The revamp denies Crystal Dragon this option by placing it in the same upgrade path as Endless Devotion: [REVAMP] Path 1 = Endless Devotion | Trail: Crystal | Freezing Aura Path 2 = Frost Armor 1/2/3 Base = Fascinating Luminescence | Arctic Flight | Catalyst: Frost If I didn't think folks outside ST would pitch a fit, I'd suggest something like this: Crystal Dragon Path 1 = Freezing Aura | Ice Veil | Trail: Crystal Path 2 = Bulwark: Jakei | Frost Armor 2 | Swoop Base = Arctic Flight | Catalyst: Frost | Endless Devotion | Fascinating Luminescence It's what first comes to mind when restoring previous functionality while preserving existing usage. The only way I see this happening is if Catalyst: Frost and/or Frost Armor are nerfed in a similar fashion to what was previously discussed. I acknowledge that other perspectives exist and am normally very tolerant of them. In this case, I feel that most who oppose the case I've put forth do so out of some degree of ignorance. Having played a very successful Crystal BG in limited league, I consider myself informed enough to understand the significant difference in its viability before and after the revamp. My goal is not to shoehorn anything, rather I seek to restore damaged themes to their previous functionality. One of my greatest frustrations post-revamp is that far too many players are looking at the current state of any given theme and concluding, "This theme sucks, time to change it!" They're either unaware or have forgotten that it was viable before the revamp and are perfectly willing to abandon it. They take a theme at face value rather than understanding that the revamp is responsible for its sudden fall from viability. It's like realizing your house is on fire only to concede, "It's already on fire, might as well let it burn to the ground. . ." (?!) You should put the fire out and repair the damage!
