Pox Nora Complete Overhaul - and why it should happen.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Tack, Oct 25, 2014.

  1. Tack

    Tack New Member

    (Disclaimer: This originally was a thread about a just-graphics rework- but over time it became clear that a completely new engine was more necessary.)

    Basically with the amount of crowd-funding that we have in the current generation, there's no reason why Pox Nora can't get some quick cash in and bring itself forward to join us in the present.

    In a sentence, the 8-yo engine is clunky, and doesn't allow for the awesome assets that a lot of wonderful and cheap artists would be able to make today. We could have cool new animated movement, attacks and effects, and without adding too much extra poundage onto the filesizes - and that's just from a graphics standpoint.
    Honestly, the whole engine could probably use less of a 'Buff and polish' and more of a 'Rip it to pieces and build it up again'. There's a lot of bugs in the game which an amateur coderat looks at and says 'That will be literally impossible to dig out'- So why bother?

    Yes, there's new content still coming out, and that's Nice. But a game as old as Dota could probably take a few small lessons from Dota 2. New content doesn't "sell" as much as a new game.
    Obviously this is a baby with years of work behind it, so there'll be a few loathe to change it; but DesertOwl is no Tarn Adams, and like the inspirational phrase many young people like to pretend old people said to them - Sometimes you need to take a step back before continuing forward.
    However in this case it's more like, you need to actually start a new run-up if you want to jump further.

    • SOE as a "Triple A Dev" could never use Kickstarter and live to tell it. DOG can, and really should. Funding becomes so much less of an issue.
    • Along with the steam release, it would seriously open up the game to new players, and revitalize the playerbase.
    • Plus remakes are in this year, and Hype sells so much better than a game that's already out.
    • A prettier client and more functional UI makes everyone happy, and opens up so many more options.
    • Steam Workshop!
    • Ipad functionality
    • We're not going to pretend any kickstarter won't include "donate X and get an angel" deals.
    • Will have to dedicate some serious man-hours.
    • Regardless of whether it keeps the current client or makes a completely brand-spanking-new engine, people should keep their accounts and cards. Many an old-guard put a lot of sweat and tears into their collections, so it's important to honor the veterans.

    More to throw on the list is always appreciated, and more likely to get this ball rolling.
    (That's if you, the player - want this ball to roll.)
    - Enough ball-rollers will make the mods perk up -
    - and enough perky mods will make the Admins hold Administration meetings -
    - and enough AA meetings will make Executives make Executive Decisions. -
    - and that is how change is Executed. -
    Meaning it all starts with Your feedback. (Inspirationalposter.jpg)​
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2014
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  2. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty


    And no.
    Baskitkase and Goyo like this.
  3. Skeezick

    Skeezick Forum Royalty

    oh that would be like 2 more years of waiting,we dont have enough of that
    Joker likes this.
  4. Tack

    Tack New Member

    Banner Saga Factions took a few months.
    Pox is a Bigger game, but has a bigger team, and more starting income behind the project.

    We're the word of mouth here. I'm pretty sure enough dedicated fans could spark a rush.
    And besides, the amount of money some few of us put into the game already?
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
  5. Skeezick

    Skeezick Forum Royalty

    well were waiting month for small balance patch so....
  6. Goyo

    Goyo I need me some PIE!

    No thanks.
  7. Zero

    Zero Active Member

    Graphics feel fine, looks nice. All we need right now is patching, content and major advertisement. Clash of Clans is a vague game that got tons of attention for great commercials and advertisements while pushing YouTubers to cover content. They hit all the marks, it's time Poxnora pushed out there, it's too old to rely on Steam now. I saw so many games die because they didn't advertise at all.
  8. jeeperz2

    jeeperz2 I need me some PIE!

    The new maps being drawn and animated are good enough..
  9. Pasiphae

    Pasiphae The King of Potatoes


    With limited resources I prefere they spend them on the gaming aspect.
    soulmilk, Woffleet, SaintKiwi and 2 others like this.
  10. Nautilak

    Nautilak Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Honestly, Pox Nora needs an overhaul in graphics and more.

    No, i'm not being negative about this. I'm just being realistic.

    Most of my friends, even those who are DIE HARD fans of the tactics genre in particular, have a hard time getting past the clunky parts of Pox Nora.

    They first give me flack over the outdated look of the game. The few I convince to try it then complain about the balance, etc. They complain about it and compare it to other games.

    THIS is the current graphics coming out for another tactics game.


    Warmachine and Hordes are pretty successful as a table top miniatures game and it's literally just turning it digital.

    There are a whole host of issues I have with Pox right now and I may even post about them soon even if no one agrees with me.

    Either way the out dated engine and the lack of 'flash and sparkles' is starting to show. The people I convince to look past that then can't get over the *balance* and other things. I love Pox Nora and I have since I started playing. I just don't love where it is right now.
  11. Morfeas

    Morfeas I need me some PIE!

    I am known to be a passionate supporter of the "NO CONTENT - GIB FIXES" campaign, but I wholeheartedly support this post. As for the ones saying no, I assume it's because they don't feel like waiting/donating to this. The way I see it, is that by having donations be the driving force of a graphics update, gameplay fixes (bugs + balance) won't be slowed down (by much). And although I agree that gameplay > graphics, fixing what we currently have (let alone pumping out new content, sigh) is going to take 2 years of pure bugfixing and balance patches at best. I'd rather end up with a modern game in 3 years then have a retro one in two. This is a win-win situation. And take note, that this is not just a graphics update like some of you make it out to be - this would be the solution to tons of bugs that currently plague the game. So yeah, it would be awesome if the devs let us support them, and the players who disagree provided some meaningful counter-arguments.
    Nautilak and Dagda like this.
  12. DaisyDukeNukem

    DaisyDukeNukem I need me some PIE!

    While I agree that updating Pox's look would be wonderful; I think those that say it has to happen are missing out on some critical facts.

    1. PoxNora uses a modern engine.
    2. It supports 2D/3D as well has modern shaders.
    3. Quality 3D modeling is neither cheap or fast. Even simple looking models tend to require a bit of work to animate properly.
    4. PoxNora uses many techniques that as a general rule optimize how 2D sprites are handled memory wise.
    The original PoxNora engine was designed without shaders and 3D in mind, so many of it's current old school look and feel come from that. As you have seen though it is apparent they are trying to get the pieces updated to reverse some of the past design decisions that were made. The maps are a perfect example of that as I believe they have added shader style effects to them. However, it is very unlikely you will ever see a fully current PoxNora in 3D beauty. It is just way to cost prohibitive with the sheer volume of champions, relics, shrines, avatars, etc.
  13. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    i think its a good idea but instead of using the money to improve the graphics use the money to find a new programmer
    the problem with DOG atm is that they only have 2 programmers and 2 artists so they need more programmers to improve the game so that we can find a new programmer who is willing to put their heart into the game this game will hugely benefit
    1) patches will go faster
    2) it will give more time for the Devs to work on other aspects of the game such as making new champions and working on new expansions
    3) The extra money can be used for advertising and such on top of WOM thanks to fundraising

    i think something like $3-4 for one donation in return you get a special present in return something like 5-6k game money so after they do tutorials they can use the money to make their own BGs and learn to play the game
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
  14. Tack

    Tack New Member

    Thanks to all of those so far who've put in some smart replies.

    So sometime in the last 6 years or so, they actually did an engine rewrite and just kept their current sprites?
  15. 19madfox95

    19madfox95 I need me some PIE!

    Pls no good graphics, my computer can barely keep up with PoxNora, when Forglar Swamp creates tons of water everywhere.
    Joker and Alkioneus like this.
  16. Pasiphae

    Pasiphae The King of Potatoes

    You all seem to think that a kickstarter campaign organise and runs itself.
    Its timeconsuming and even if succesful would divert energi away from the rest of the work because they have to hire and instruct the newcommers.
  17. Tack

    Tack New Member

    If Desert Owl wants to give me a commission, I'd run the whole thing myself- including hiring a team.
  18. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    I enjoy and playing for the complexity, the visuals are literately whatever. Some runes look way more bad ass then others, but i stopped caring about looks after furball mother was released. Furball mother is so stupid looking but kicks so much butt, that i feel the designers made her look like she dose just to troll us.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2014
  19. Ozariig

    Ozariig I need me some PIE!

    I'm not opposed to the idea of a Pox Nora 2.0 engine update. I absolutely don't think that graphics fidelity will drive that decision, though. All of the graphical bells and whistles have been getting added to the engine incrementally over time - you have to realize that the Pox team is constantly doing engine work on the game, with every patch and expansion. Some of the old sprites have even been replaced too.

    I can see two reasons to make a new engine for the game, and both are business reasons more than technology reasons:
    1. If a different technology would support better platform compatibility on a platform that DOG actually cares about. So if they wanted to tackle iPad, Android, and major consoles, that would be a good reason. That said, I'm not convinced that Java can't run on those devices, so a full engine rewrite might not even be necessary if a good ol' refactor would do!
    2. If evidence showed that the core sales method, i.e. packs of runes without any kind of set rotation over an infinite number of expansions, was somehow flawed and unsustainable. If "what needs to be done" can't be done because of the burden of maintaining everyone's huge rune collections, it might be better to build a modern-skinned sequel and leave the old game to die.
    That said, If DOG wants to do something controversial, I'd like to see a Kickstarter for it. Digital rewards for Kickstarter contributors are cheap to fulfill, and the performance of the Kickstarter would be a great indicator for how well the update would be received.

    Heck, all of the old sprites could certainly be re-done. DOG should know exactly how much that costs, because implementing art for an expansion is part of their core business. A Kickstarter for that would be fine, since the money would go toward hiring the necessary resources to get the work done without affecting the current team. I'm curious if the amount of money necessary to re-do the old art would actually be small enough to allow a successful Kickstarter campaign though.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2014
  20. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    If Pox did a kickstarter it would earn like $145 which would effectively be a kickender.
    BurnPyro, Pedeguerra and Skeezick like this.

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