st has several crutches that imo hold back the development of our faction. first and foremost is arctic.: arctic prevents us from getting natural 7 speed champs, it also prevents us from getting a terrain theme, though the terrain itself causing -1 speed and impeding also holds the terrain theme back, the speed boost is a large reason for it as well. it holds mirrors back as can be seen in the monk racial, and ultimately all we need it to do is prevent our champs from getting stuck in snow, it doesn't even need to really be used as a targetting device for spells as all other faction get by with spells that say "non-friendly". second is gale and other auto include spells: this spell is the biggest auto include of includes, it literally can do everything, and because of this we really can't get other forms of relocation or spot damage in the faction. we also don't get as much choice in our spell selection. my spells for the last 4 years have pretty much been 2x ice storm 1-2x cleansing storms, 2x gales, 1-2x swaps, provincial marker, + 3-5 other runes. we need to change this. to get another spell in the faction that is playable it need to be on par with gale to compete for a slot with the other runes, this makes creating spells for st near impossible. I'm not saying we should have bad spells, and I don't intend for st to have bad spells, what I want is for st to have more relatively equal options rather then 10 runes that are simply the best and nothing else in faction compares. amp and the spell spam tactic: although this isn't commonly used anymore due to revamp knee capping amp, storing 150 nora and dropping the bomb has always been ST's fall back strategy, and although this isn't limited to ST I'd prefer we win with solid tactics through out the match rather then something s simple as this. Meat tanks and Beasts: for the longest time I believe SOE had no idea what to do with ST, so every rune release they would give us more slow fat meat tanks, sometimes efficient like monkey, other times high costs and weird like hydra. This is because if they are fast arctic makes them faster, if they have frost damage they will get amped, if they have range we threaten the board with gale, end of the day all they give us are simple fat meat tanks. so now we have the beast theme, the theme of fat guys that people still complain about and for good reason, I'm unsure of how yet but I would like to transition these guys into other roles. nhk: When On the champs it is designed for it ultimately remains ok, but this ability is on par with ghost, one of the most broken abilities in the game IMO. so this theme cannot be allowed to be good, if it was you could expect a nerf within a week. as such this should be changed to allow nhk theme to flourish in the long term. Now for the ups: now this might sound like baskitkases wet dream but no ultimately I do want st to flourish, I'm only targeting things that stop ST from getting decent themes and new spell support as well as the single broken theme in st. my goal will be to address all the themes in st to give them a unique direction of play style, with a different set of spell supports that fit the play style of each of these themes. as per usual st will be considered broken because we will have more then one theme that is viable, but ultimately I can't do anything about the other 7 factions I don't play them, I hope their players have people that can do similar things for their factions.
well once the main issues are addressed we can begin working on the themes and spells related to them over time. NERFES: just two examples of what I would have in mind to give you an idea. gale: aoe reduced to 1 or base damage removed. I'd prefer knock back damage reduce to 4 though, since in general 5 is pretty high. arctic would protect from chill and grant ice walker, that's it. spells that now rely on arctic would be changed to non friendly to help with splits. some champs would then have their speed increased to 7 as a stop gap to compensate for the loss of arctic which effectively a faction wide -1 speed at the start of the game. Buffes: for example we could do something like the following snowstorm 35 nora - changed to lasts 4 turns no damage but grounds opposing units and causes them to lose 2 ap. freeze the earth - aoe -3 all effected spaces are ice for 4 turns, enemy champions who begin their turn in this area are frozen and lose 1 speed for 4 turns. blizzard elemental can be changed to have cast-snow storm, and train-windaura to force enemy flyers to deal with the snow, and give him a nice terrain generation suite. ice elemental could gain "cast- freeze the earth" as part of a terrain theme focus I would like to hopefully push through an ability or two with the next expansion to play on these themes, something like the following tundra tactics - when this unit targets an enemy champion with a basic attack that is occupying ice or snow, they become confused and grounded. I have more but I want to finish my notes before really going over it as people would honestly latch on to some of the early ideas and even these ideas will likely change as things go on.
I do overall like those suggestions! I agree on that gale force should be dealt with somehow, I always also run it! I would like to see more "trigger" abilities on your champs, that could create synergy or some bad or good combinations.
I don't know about Cast: Spell, those abilities tend to be super high in N cost. We have Spellsurge too. For everything else, sounds amazing and I'll back you up with everything I can.
i am unsure about some nerfs , i do understand your concern with our spells never changing no matter the theme , but if they nerf gale and dont buff something back we are kinda screwed. and i think that most factions suffer the same problems , maybe if all factions got their main spells nerfed it would be balanced , who knows
in the short term it would be bad yes, but in the longer term it gives st more room to grow. the most annoying thing about playing st since coming back is that in the year and half i had been gone it's exactly the same play style as it's always been, nothing has changed nor has it evolved in any way.
I have mixed feelings about Arctic and the suggested change to it. Personally I always enjoyed the idea of ice making them weaker and us stronger. By itself that isn't even bad. Though I guess the fact that Arctic is on as good as every ST champion makes designing around it difficult, especially if you want to make a "theme" out of it. Most themes in the game consist of a handful of champions that share a common thing together with a handful of spells to support that. Like.. I don't know.. some spiders somewhere having crawl and creep or something. If you wanted to make a terrain focused theme now you'd kind of force every ST theme into that too, or at least allow them to participate in it simply because nearly everybody has arctic. That would also mean that you'd indirectly buff everything in ST. Which in some cases wouldn't be bad. In the beast case somebody would probably complain. Anyway. You could avoid that by making arctic a simple combination of immunity to chill and icewalker and continue slapping that onto nearly everything in ST. I'm not really a fan of that solution. It gives Arctic a sense of meaninglessness because in the end all it really does is allowing us to stand on the ice that is generated by our Ice Storms.. and that's it. And now I have a question: Is Icewalker actually still a thing? I remember that being a real ability forever ago but while doing some minor research right now I realized that poxbase doesn't know the ability and I couldn't think of a single champion that naturally has Icewalker and not Arctic. Wait no.. real question: Do we need Arctic on nearly all of our champions if all it does is protecting us from our Ice Storms? Especially if one of the complaints in the OP was that Ice Storm has been an auto-include for years and we should find ways to change that? Before you turn Arctic into a bland "Immunity: Ice Storm Aftermath" ability I'd rather see it buffed to the former Arctic that gave things +1 speed among the other stuff. But then I'd also remove the ability from 90% of our champions and toss it onto those that look like they have an ice cube as mother. If only a handful of champions had arctic you would have a much easier time making a balanced terrain driven theme around it. Icewalker could be revived and given to a big chunk of the ST population that wasn't gifted with Arctic and those that were not lucky enough to get an Arctic replacement could be candidates for more natural speed or just be forced to deal with it. (Yeah, some spells would need changes as well in this case.) As for Gale Force.. I'm having a really tough time seeing it walking the middle line. With the way the spell is now I can only imagine it being an auto-include or being shoebox material. Though my imagination isn't the best out there. So good luck making reasonable changes to that without making it unplayable.
well their are multiple ways to create ice and snow, and in the case of snow arctic/icewalker is desperately important since it basically causes lumbering. if I was to push a terrain theme you can expect the runes involved to generate quite a bit more of this terrain, as it stands now though the main source of ice is indeed ice storm, the cause of this being a combinations of the debuff + buff of arctic and ice. I intend to remedy this by making it just the debuff. as for gale, yes it's likely to be either OP or shoebox but as it stands it's been the strongest spell in st for 5 years, if it does indeed end up in the shoebox I believe it's had a good run, better then any of the other spells I would like to bring up to playable status.
I just think that if we do want to have a terrain theme we also have to accept that not everybody gets to play in it. Imagine UD getting a spell that generates a bit of lava and as a result of it they start demanding lavawalker on all their champions. That would be silly. Nearly as silly as this example but I'm having a hard time finding a better way to get my point across. Though yeah. I think that if we want to have a strong terrain theme that can stand up for itself we also have to accept that no every single of our champions will be able to be part of it. Since if that was the case you could easily combine the terrain theme with pretty much any other ST theme and cause a bit of havoc, probably. Which is why Arctic on everything might be a bad thing, even without Ready on it.. that is, if you really do want to have a strong terrain theme standing on its own feet. If the goal is to let it be a side-product kinda like the ice that Ice Storm is generating is right now.. then yeah, you'd probably want to stick with Arctic on everything then. I think I just managed to write the same thing three times. Sorry about that.
well we've always treated arctic like the fs amphibious/aquatic bonus. faction wide and the terrain has positive and negative effects. but perhaps you are right, i'll think about it more
I like that only some champs would work in terrain decks, this opens up design space in equip and spell areas that could provide terrain enablers for other champs.
I'm not familiar with what FS is currently doing. But from the few games I have played and observed I don't recall seeing much terrain alteration done by the frogs. Maybe they suffer under the same issues that we have where giving them too much water would mean indirectly buffing the whole faction instead of just a certain theme?
look into aquatics, it's one of the two existing terrain themes that still see play, the second is sand bg's in sl but sand does not have any negative effects in and of itself.
Arctic Remove Ready. Alternatively, split up Icewalker into Snowwalker (which it grants) and Icewalker (which it doesn't grant) while changing the Ice terrain penalty to -1 DEF to represent the difficulty of remaining stable on slippery ground. Gale Force Remove base Frost damage and/or give 2x2 units immunity to its knockback. Spell Selection The ST's spells you listed aren't quite as auto as you suggest, but I agree ST's spell selection isn't properly weighted. I've listed all of ST's direct damage spells (other than Gale Force) and included potential buffs/nerfs to spread out their efficiency and intended usage. Deep Freeze [45N] (Area 5 - All spaces become Ice for 4 turns. All units take 10 Frost damage. Units successfully damaged become Frozen 3.) Freeze the Earth [25N] (Area 3 - All spaces become Ice for 6 turns. All units become Chilled 3.) Frigid Barrier [45N] (Only +5 Nora, but removing Ice terrain or changing it to Snow is a possible alternative.) Frostbite [40N] (Global - All units become Frozen 5 and Chilled 5.) Howling Wind (Highly specialized but viable; no changes.) Hypothermia [50N] (Global - All non-Arctic units take 4 Frost damage. Units occupying Snow or Ice become Chilled 3. Units with Chilled take an additional 8 Frost damage, lose Chilled and become Frozen 3.) Ice Storm [50N] (Area 4 - All spaces become Ice for 2 turns. All units take 8 Frost Damage. Units successfully damaged become Eviscerated 2. Units with Flying become Grounded 2 and take 5 Physical damage.) Millennial Icequake [100N] (Global - All units take 15 Frost damage and lose all AP. Units without flying take an additional 15 Physical damage.) Northern Wind Discipline (My first impression of this was quite good so I wouldn't change this, for now.) Snowburst (I built a BG around this that had amazing powerturns, but it's viability decreased after the revamp due to changes to relic-based champions. I can't say whether or not it's still an effective niche rune until I've taken another look post-revamp.) Snowed In (Popular spell before Frigid Barrier was released. Would likely see more play after adjustments to Frigid Barrier, Gale Force and Ice Storm) Snowstorm [35N] (Area 4 - All dirt terrain becomes Deep Snow and all water terrain becomes Ice for 6 turns. All non-Arctic units gain Lumbering for 2 turns.) Threads of Ice [35N] (Target Champion becomes Paralyzed 3 and gains Vulnerability: Frost for 3 turns.) Spell Spamming I'm not convinced this is something you can fix. Spell spamming happens either because a player overestimates the value of spells at the cost of deployed champions or they understand the importance of one-rounding. Why bother sprinkling spells across your turns when you know that 2+ spells in the same (power) turn will have a greater effect? You can certainly provide compelling reasons for using spells early like Arctic Gift and Frostbite (with longer conditions), but you can't change the fundamental value of a power turn. Abundance of "Meat Tanks" I definitely agree that a number of ST champs are overly efficient when it comes to Nora:HP ratios. What I don't agree with is idea that ST is primarily slow, fat bruisers. Their faction bonus is what makes them feel like bruisers and Ferren/Strig are examples of newer themes that exist outside of your provided generalization. What I'm getting from your concern is the revamp took a wrecking ball to so many themes that the basic value of high Nora:HP values is outshining most alternatives. Less beefy melee champions usually require a thematic/synergistic equivalent to be effective. Ferren had Ferren Focus while Strig have Boon of the Wind. In other words, beefcakes are so prevalent and noticeable because they are the easiest to identify and use (effectively) after the revamp. Rebuilding broken themes while adjusting major outliers seems like the best option, here. NHK(?) I'm assuming you're referring to Nohkan Do. I agree it's current form needs changing, but I'd start with making it an activated ability with 1-2 CD instead of being passive. That, alone, opens it up to a number of possible counters revolving around activating an ability. Obelus is the first that comes to mind.
I think arctic should give: Immune to chill and frozen. (dont give it to all ST champs) And give champs icewalker or snowwalker instead. It open up alot of new alternatives.
the thing is the devs abandoned those themes after release in favor of beasts, that's why we have a dozen or so legendary beasts, and a single legendary strig. it's been quite awhile since we got a decent legendary jakei, or even a decent exotic jakei. beasts were what st was fed and thus it's why we have so many beef cakes, even if you nerf 5 theirs 5 more waiting in the shoebox to come up from reserve. i'd like to bring them down, while transitioning some of these beasts into other themes.
I'd like to walk through the contents of the last 6 expansions because it appears as though you've glossed over the facts: Wild Alliance: introduced Strig Crusade of the Vashal: introduced Ferren and a legendary Jakei Endless Wonder: introduced Crystal theme (which, in fairness, has 3 beasts), Tundra Whisper and a limited Jakei Broken Shard: added several to Yetis and one each to Jakei (Heretic) and Lonx (Bounty Hunter) Plague of Ba'lah: abandoned all previous themes via two beefy Beasts (Frostfall Hydra/Tardigrade), oh nvm, also added to Ferren (Wanderer), Leoss (Magnate) and Lonx (Channeler/Luminary); also. . . Skybreak Dragun! Bonds of War: introduced Kas theme and added to Crystal (Dragon); recently added a third beast (Khong Monk) that is only loosely affiliated (Monk with NKD) In this time frame, four new themes were introduced (Strig/Ferren/Crystal/Kas each with a legendary!), Crystals/Ferren/Leoss/Yetis were added to and 3 beasts were released (6 if you count the ones in Crystals). Other than the fact that those beasts are certainly beefy, explain to me how the contents of these expansions imply said themes have been abandoned? Many new themes/races were introduced across the factions during these expansions and while many (if not most) of them are currently struggling due to the revamp, I don't agree with your claim that ST abandoned its themes in favor of beasts galore. I'd consider it a more accurate statement that beasts turned out better given the relative complexity of their "theme" is easier to grasp. In this case, beasts are largely defined by being beefcakes, so preserving that across the revamp was, understandably, easier to do. Consider this a very respectful warning that if you make sweeping generalizations I will call you on them. I definitely support many of your goals, but please do your part by properly informing yourself before attempting to don the "Man of the (ST) People!" mantle. Inaccurately presented information is a large part of why ST has been considered "stupidly broken OP" for so long regardless of whether or not it actually was.
"Quite a while" and "decent" are terms that are subject to opinion. I'd say that the last time we got a decent E/LE/LEG Jakei who can fit in an established theme was back in the Endless Wonder expansion where we got K'ento. The Jakei Heretic is an uncommon with a LE reskin. And while the Guide from the BoW expansion is certainly decent, he isn't there to support what we already had but rather to start a new thing with the whole NKD nonsense. So, for me that would be like four expansions ago? And that does sound like quite a while considering that we didn't get a real expansion this year yet. I don't know what themes calsik was referring to when he said "those" themes were abandoned. If he meant the classic things we had like for example ice/terrain stuff or jakei-doing-frost-things then I can agree with the statement. Since pushing out a new thing with every expansion while giving the old themes only little attention would fit my understanding of abandoning it.
Fixed. Oddly enough, I know that, but I think looking at Lonx Bounty Hunter on the other screen when I typed that caused me to confuse the two. Thanks for catching that. . . I'm dumb :*(
