honestly not wanting or expecting change but you never know when someone might put out a neat idea. first why I'm even bringing this up...well like with magnetic rover and AP denial decks, they have counters, they aren't tier one decks, and they aren't IMO broken, BUT when they work they SUCK to play against, they are not enjoyable for the opponent to play against, and as I bring up frequently, the fun factor behind this game needs to always be kept firmly in mind when discussing or balancing runes for both players involved. so if I was to change it I'm thinking that NKD should go in the direction of damage shields. for example... "when this unit attacks it gets 2 points of damage shield for every friendly monk you control until the end of the next turn." this would be significantly weaker in the early game, but stronger in the late game build ups, carries a bit of monk synergy and is not an ability you can make much use of in a stand alone, also puts the burden of attack on you although not immediate things like stun still counter it as you won't be able to attack with your unit, but does not result in a straight instagib like it does currently, you will have a chance to respond before your units lose their defenses, which is a major down side to trying to play NKD as a theme currently. it's rough but an idea for a different way we could take it that might get less complaints and as a bonus it's simple for everyone involved to understand and keep track of.
im not sure if you mean something like an HP buffer (https://poxbase.com/effect/728) or the ability damage shield i think an hp buffer would be interesting, its like getting armor for attacking, i like it, not sure what the costing would be on something like that
How about it activates as it is now, but only one hit per turn and every time it triggers the champion gets its discipline's cooldowns reduced by 1?
I have two issues with answers of that type. the first is it's just an overly complicated block dodge that really wouldn't need to exist at that point. on top of that block and dodge might even have the edge because you can target the unit you want it to block where this version you can't. the discipline synnergy is neat and original but not all NKD champs have disciplines and not all will have them in the future. not to take away from this part of the suggestion I've never seen this type of answer presented before, so kudos on this part i'll be thinking about this later. my second issue is the usual answer of would I want to have this ability on all of my units after the change in a monk theme? as it triggers block or dodge once a round and has synnergy with disciplines it would then be costed at a higher rate then having block and dodge, thus all monks would then be semi sandbagged with an ability that at best works as effectively as block or dodge but is costed as if he was using both and then some. I'm still on the side that NKD currently blocks 3 attacks a round, if it ever goes below 2 then there is no point to it at all because block and dodge exists, and I'm not convinced that 2 is any less annoying to play against then three since it auto wins in 1 vs 1. So I'm left with the conclusion that if NKD is going to get a change it should be changed in a direction away from blocks and dodges entirely.
Another option to consider: Nohkan Do Rank 1 - Activated (CD 2, 0 AP): For 2 turns, attacks against this unit automatically miss and this unit loses 2 AP. Does not trigger if this unit is Paralyzed, Stunned or has less than 2 AP. Rank 2 - Activated (CD 1, 0 AP): For 2 turns, attacks against this unit automatically miss and this unit loses 2 AP. Does not trigger if this unit is Paralyzed, Stunned or has less than 2 AP. Recommended NKD ranks: Contained Thrall [rank 1] Ferren Assassin [2] Ferren Brawler [1] Ferren Master [2] Ferren Pouncer [1] Ferren Wander [1 - I'd prefer it was removed entirely in favor of reverting to a Ranger, though] Firk Paraform [1] Jakei Adherent [2] Jakei Mindstriker [2] Jakei Shadowstriker [1] Jakei Warfoot [1] K'ento, First Disciple [2] Khong Monk [2] Nohkan Apprentice [1] Nohkan Grandmaster [2] Nohkan Guide [2 - Train: Nokhan Do 1] Vashal Eremite [1]
So something like this? When this champion is attacked, 5 damage is prevented for every AP the champion has. The champion loses the AP when it prevents damage in this way.
We could do it one of two ways: Multi-AP When this champion is attacked, 5 damage is prevented for every AP the champion has. The champion loses the AP when it prevents damage in this way. In this variant, the unit would lose as many AP as it has to cover the damage dealt. A 12 damage attack on a 3 AP unit would deal 2 total damage at a cost of 2 AP. Per Attack When this champion is attacked, up to 5 damage is prevented if the champion has at least 1 AP. The champion loses 1 AP when it prevents damage in this way. In this variant, the unit would prevent up to 5 damage per attack but would never lose more than 1 AP per attack. A 12 damage attack on a 3 AP unit would deal 7 damage at a cost of 1 AP.
I like the per attack one better I think. Mostly because I think it is slightly less likely to cause people to complain. What do you think the costing would be like for it?
This doesn't address the issues I mentioned above regarding the reliance on missed attacks for Arrow Throw, Counterstrike and Riposte. I'm not a fan of either of these.
If you want to move away from the block/dodge mechanic you'll probably have to rework all the monks that rely on NKD for their counterattacks. I wouldn't really mind that but it seems like a lot of work. It would probably be easier to rework NKD by adding more cost to the activation. A simple change would be the introduction of an increasing AP cost. First trigger eats 2 AP, the second takes 3, then 4, etc. This would make them a bit less "tanky" in some situations. Though I've seen people complaining about a NKD unit sitting in their side-font, doing nothing but contesting it to deny the opponent some Nora. Since it would likely be a one on one situation there and 5 AP isn't really hard to come by it would still be a rather frustrating experience for the opponent. The damage preventing idea provided by the cactus would probably work better in those side-font cases. I actually like that suggestion. I'd just work the dodge/block thing in there. Let's say that NKD trained creatures are still masters of avoiding being hit in the face. However moving faster than the speed of sound (an appropriate dodging speed!) forces them to tap into their life force. And so each activation of NKD costs 2AP and permanently reduces the users max HP by 5.
here is a list of the units that currently have access to a form of counter attack ferren master - arrow throw, upgrade mind striker - arrow throw line upgrade shadow striker - upgrade arrow throw warfoot riposte - base kento - arrow throw upgrade khong monk - mocking blow base grandmaster - counter strike line of upgrades the first 5 it's barely an after thought, you could lose it for something else without a second thought, in the case of mind striker and war foot it might help them out of the shoebox in fact. the real trouble comes with grand master and khong monk who have been directly designed around the counter attack mechanics and are quite playable atm. khong monk lacks a lot of abilities so if needed you could go two ways imo, first way give him zephyr shield, second way give him dodge base, and block in the rapid attack line of upgrades. grandmaster - change counter strike to blind fire would be my suggestion. she has too many abilities for a dodge/block tree to be added to her and personally I think this fits.
I am not sure I am a fan of the current NKD + CounterAttacks myself. It creates a situation where NKD is either completely countered (and therefore the other stuff is also countered), or else the player not only cannot damage you, but will take damage if they try. From a mechanics perspective, this isn't also very different than Deflect all over the place. I believe the above is partly why NKD isn't fun to play against (and sometimes not fun to play with either). That said, I understand some players do like that mechanic/interaction, and it is fairly unique to the Monks atm.
I think the per attack option would be pretty cool but I still think it should be capped at 3 maybe 4 triggers.
why? it's not like current NKD where they can't possibly kill you if you store enough ap without the limit. this version reduces damage making them tanky, but to keep that degree of defense they likely need to not attack themselves. say you store 4 ap get atacked four times you would have taken probably 20+ damage assuming they all had the base minimum of 10 damage. on the next turn you would start your turn with 6-7 ap but for this let's say 6. If you attack even once then you would only be able to mitigate 3 attacks, if you had to move to get that attack even less. it's strong and I do expect some complaints from the new version, but it is much improved from the current version, on 10 damage units it's literally half blocks, on big hitters it's far less efficient then NKD of current. we don't really need to complicate the ability with trigger limits.
I imagine a flat out damage reduction could be problematic. Melee opponents would likely be more screwed than they already are against newNKD (-5 DMG for 1 AP) when you throw one of STs many sources of Majestic into the mix. Taking the 10 DMG unit provided by calisk against everything newNKD and adding Ancient Implications / Favor of the Queen / Grumble Rock in there would mean that the newNKD unit once again becomes invincible. You have to spend nora on a spell which is a downer, but for that the newNKD thing can potentially tank three melee things without ever taking damage. (Why anybody would engage a Majestic newNKD unit with three melee champions is beyond me, too!) If you don't take outside help into account you'll still have potentially problematic champions when the DEF interaction comes into play. There are NKD units with 2 DEF out there. So your 10 DMG token critter would be hitting for 3 at this point. If you cheat (by using outside help) and use a defense boosting ability, equipment or spell you'll be back at dealing close to no damage again. And for all the NKD stuff that doesn't have 2 DEF you still have the Nohkan Guide kids who'll get your DEF up. Setting something like a newNKD Ferren Pouncer + Shield up is probably not as easy as just placing your oldNKD unit into a font, but the result still seems very annoying... at least if you throw it against a bunch of medicore-DMG champions. (If I knew more about equipment or spells or anything I could likely come up with a more threatening scenario than a random newNKD guy that has a weird Shield spell casted on it... But you maybe get the idea. That thing can potentially become more tanky than the current NKD.) Oh and regarding the counterattack issue, @calisk (... somehow you are still callsick in my head) I'm just used to hearing that the DOG resources are limited and they have to set their priorities. So changing an ability that people find annoying seemed more realistic than changing an ability that people find annoying together with partly redesigning 2 - 7 champions so they don't feel like even more sandbagged pieces of junk. I really wouldn't mind it if the monk things we have would move away from the counter-attack related things in life. I just don't find it realistic at the moment.
well in regards to majestic, which is a nice catch because i hadn't thought of it. it would be on par with the current block/dodge. of course all that means is they have to use ranged units against them, I mean at that points it's essentially arrow eater for melee, or intimidating, but easier to bypass then both of them, i.e just getting them to 0 ap with ranged attacks. one other thing to account for is that majestic with or without this ability tends to make melee useless, I can't think of one time i've had majestic on a unit and been worried about melee except maybe something with a forbidden fruit on, so I ask which is the problem in that combination. current nkd doesn't care if you are ranged, if you are melee, or how much damage you have, this version with spell support can reach a near equal level against melee, but it's still weaker to everything else. you are right though about defense calculations skewing this towards minimal damage...it does lean me back towards damage bubbles like I originally suggested, it's similar in nature to this except the degree is preset and your opponent could use damage spells to remove the bubbles if they needed to.
