http://poxbase.com/#!/deck/ChMC2fC16C4QCg@ChXC4bc6wc4ns6ZSwspsnr2hrTRmr8E2BE21 (I'll edit once I figure out how to get it to be an image; I tried the obvious things and it didn't work) I had a skeleton deck before the revamp, and had some success with it, but after the revamp I had to make some changes. Bonewing got completely nerfed, losing range and dread and flanking that I can remember off the top of my head. I had Serkan+Vendetta in there for goofstuff despite not being a skeleton, but I cannot possibly justify two runes space on that anymore due to his nerfs. I'd also had a second altar, two bone elementals, two forsaken followers and two necromancers in here, but I took them out to make space for some of the newly buffed runes, and the skeletal lerpers I forged a few days ago but hadn't been willing to commit to. The rune choices: Boneshredder x2: Normally I put cloak of skulls on one as soon as I can. This thing tanks extremely well, and craps out skeletons every time he's hit with the cloak, and he often gets hit a lot. He doesn't make skeletons when targeted by some special attacks, but he's still making a lot of baby skeletons. Bulwark: Skeleton is auto, and makes him get even MORE tanky. Scale armour and calcify were a tossup, but I went with scale armour because it seemed slightly better. Two because you want one ASAP, and because it's so buff you don't mind deploying a second. And bone trap... holy cow. Free meat, free damage, free fear, free roadblock... love it! Crossbone x2: Provides some useful range, and they're fairly cheap to play, although with the recost update, they're now 71 instead of 63. I haven't leveled them up yet, but I will run rabid and domain: DMZ. Rabid because the reapers have black death in their upgrades, and domain: DMZ seems auto, although you could make a case for farshot. (paralytic strike useless without sources of paralyze in the deck) Lich King x2: Expensive as hell, but worth every point of nora. I typically put tempest crowns on these, and then go to town. I fully expect some sort of nerf on these soon. Surge: Skeleton 2 is obviously auto in this deck, and he's regularly at 20-30+ damage. I went with oblivion shield over void shield, although both are really good, and void shield is cheaper, which with the hefty nora cost on this guy is a very valid consideration, and with tempest crown, he could potentially build up his resistances to the point where they're more valuable than oblivion shield, but I don't want to rely on my opponent letting that happen. Despite the cost and his immortality, I still think it's worth using two, just for the chance you can have both in play at the same time. If he's nerfed, say to surge skeleton 1, I'd drop to 1x of this guy, maybe even run zero. Skeezick Boneblade x2: Someone in my guild recommended this guy. I was skeptical, and almost didn't do it... but man, that guy was right. Boneblade is a powerhouse. Once leveled, I'll run multiattack 2 and hunter: SL, because those are obvious auto picks. He's also really good with tempest crown, because cleave is a basic attack, and multi lets him hit even more often. Hunter: SL is just a bonus, and auto because the other two choices make no sense in FF FW anyway. Skeletal Lerper x2: I love this guy already, and I haven't even leveled him up so he can get surge skeleton: 2 yet. The only flying champion and detection option in here (surge 2 and detect auto picks) gives him some solid uses just from that, and he's got his own stealth as well. Haunting visions is kinda weird, and procs a lot less than I'd have expected it to, but it's a handy little bonus. Skeletal Reaper x2: This guy's a lot better than he looks, too, but he's still probably one of the weaker champs in here just because there's already so much physical melee in here. Still, scythe whirl lets him put out the damage and grants evasive, and once I level him up, black death (synergizes with crossbones above) and souldrinker will be the upgrades. Tomb Lord x2: Boost skeleton 3, surge skeleton 1, ranged alt damage, and summon skeleton 2, and we have a winner! I could swear he had surge 2 before the revamp, but whatever; he's still awesome. Tormented Priest x1: Included in my pre-revamp deck almost solely for dark healing, he got some pretty nice buffs. I've been running Boost 3 (auto) and then shrive, although I haven't actually used shrive in a single game yet. I don't see a need to run a second one, but one is useful. Xulos x1: Obvious autoinclude in skeletons, and any FF FW I've ever done. Went with grace 2 and dark favour 3, despite the additional costs. He got a big nora increase in the revamp, but he deserved it, and he's still awesome. Anathema x1: I love the AoE on this thing. The antihealing comes in handy on occasion as well. A second one could be considered, but I don't know what to cut. Dark Rising x2: Another guildmate suggestion that I was skeptical of, this spell has proven very useful. Dumps a bunch of skeleton roadblocks that can attack right away, get in the way, and increase damage on all your surge champs. (oh, look, my lich king just got +10 damage...) I'm not totally sold on running it 2x, but 1x is definitely auto for me from now on in here. Domination x1: Sometimes an enemy champ just gets tired of life and jumps off a bridge cliff... I'd run 2x, but it's fairly map dependent (it's not that great without chasms/lava/whatever, but still marginally useful if they leave lots of AP on something strong) and many people have hissy fits whenever their champs cliffdive. Mobilization x1: Fantastic FW spell. Only 'downside' is there's often so many skeletons that there isn't enough time in the turn to do everything you can with it. I'd run 2, but I don't know what to cut, and it's fairly nora expensive for a spell (but worth every bit). Altar of Bones x1: Should be obvious. Switched to 1x instead of 2x to make room for other stuff, and because I found I wasn't usually pumping out enough expendables to keep both altars running all the time, or even want to deploy the second one. Elsarin Vex x1: FW banner, FF FW, duh... Always useful, but especially good here due to the summoned skeles having suck hp; +5 is a lot when their base is like 9 or something, as it often makes the difference between dying to 1 hit and dying to 2 hits. Graveyard x2: Moar skeletons! Moar! I've never had an issue with the shrine taking too much damage, even with scrying and lich king immortality. I might drop to 1x, just because 1x altar now, to fit other things in. Unholy Tomb x1: Nora gen is awesome. The paltry damage is just bonus. Added this after the revamp, because I'd taken out all the nonundead champs I was running (forsaken follower, necromancer) that I probably shouldn't have been running, anyway. Cloak of Skulls x2: Usually goes on the boneshredders. 1x auto for augment creation, second one debatable, and I am considering dropping the second. Tempest Crown x2: I love healing. Works great on the surge champs with huge damage. Also useful on boneshredders for even more longevity; sometimes played on the second shredder after the first gets a cloak. Okay, so there I've justified the current runes. Here are some I'm considering; I want you all to give feedback on the BG and any mods you think I should run. Undead Magister: I was using this 1x pre-revamp, and he was great, but he got a -massive- cost increase AND lost his bomb ability. (I forget if it was charged bomb or magic bomb now) I decided to take him out and see if the DMZs were enough antispell. Skeletal Rifleman: I ran this for about 3 games, and then someone in my guild told me to use Crossbone instead. Both are quite similar. Rifleman has black death, accrue, more range and more hp, but at an increased cost. Crossbone has a better min range and a lower cost, and rabid instead of black death. Spectral Emissary: He's got some solid things going for him, like flight/7spd, range, and magic damage, but you have to choose between life siphon and stun now. Also, I only own 1x of him, so if you suggest this, I can't run two, and being legendary, good luck finding a second. Bone Elemental: I was running two pre-revamp, and he's mostly the same as before, but there's pretty much no reason to run him when boneshredder is basically better, especially with cloak. Bonemauler: I've heard a few people talking him up recently, but I just don't see it. He's another 1 range physical beater. Skeezick boneblade seems way better to me. Bonewing: This was 2x auto pre-revamp, but he's down to 1 rng instead of 1-4 and lost dread/flanking. He's got elusive still, but it doesn't matter, because nobody cares if he lives or dies. He has boost 3, but so do several other champs. Rebuke is situationally useful, but not enough to be worth a slot IMO. Angel/Aspect of Death: I have 1x of each. Great runes, but they don't really bring anything I need, and I don't have room for them. Demonvein Vampyre: He's a split rune now, and I have two in many of my UD decks. I really like him, but he has no synergy with anything else in here, and would be solely used for goodstuff, which he still is, despite his heavy nerfing. (lost blood rage and multiattack) Dusk Creeper: Wut, improve range... race undead? LOL. Might be worth using 1x just for that... range 9 lich kings... wtf. He's also got soul collection + various synergizing upgrades, any of which are great on him. He's really fragile at 38hp and no defensive abilities. (unless you take fading light and hide) Elder Bloodbinder: Lost vaporize, which makes bloodbinder really fragile instead of a ridiculous tank against anything nonmagical, but greater vampirism is still great with tempest crown (and some of the other 'possibles' like demonvein) Or at least it will be when they fix the bug with greater vampirism not actually working... It was working, but at only 50%, and then they broke it so it doesn't work at all. My life siphon deck, one of my favourites, was hurt bad by that bug... Forsaken Follower: I was using this pre-revamp for the summon skeleton 3, but I got screwed over so many times by pawn killing stuff I wanted to live instead of the follower that I decided they had to go. Forsaken Doombringer: I have two, and they're good, but much like angel/aspect, I don't know that I need them. They have ranged magical attack, various fear abilities, doom, flight, healing, and rabid (black death synergy) but other than doom I already have access to all of that stuff in one way or another. (even fear, from bone traps off shredder) Mysian Necromancer: Boost 3 and Summon 3, but low damage and no defense. She also lost that weird damage ability that was opponent nora based. Necromancer: I was running this pre-revamp (I don't know why anymore...) but it seems inferior to mysian necromancer in basically every way, and I'm not even running that. Ravenwraith: This would be 2x auto IF it were race: skeleton. Vaporize, souldrinker, 1-2 range, psychic damage, vengeful (undead race...) and 7 spd. I am seriously considering including 1 or 2 anyway despite the fact that they aren't skeletons. Sarinda: Dark healing (but I already have it), deathstrike (but fewer superchamps) elsari coven (but no real synergies) and relocate foe (which would be a definite asset). Mostly just mentioning because I do have 1x so I could do it without selling a kidney. Serkan/vendetta: I took this out; after his heavy nerfs, I couldn't justify two runes towards his weakened power level anymore. I'd still do it in goodstuff FW, but not skeletons. And, other than frost cone, Lich King outclasses him in every way here. With vendetta, the gap closes dramatically, but is still in favour of the King. Toll-taker: Tariff... otherwise he has nothing I don't already have. Vampyre: Holy mother... he got buffed. No synergy though; he'd just be for goodstuff. And for being a chick magnet. Despoil: DMZ and soul collection on demand and lasts a long time. Hard to justify a spot, though, but it's cheaper than the magister... Doom: I had 2x of these pre-revamp, but it's just too slow to do anything. If I was going to use dooms, I'd do doombringers or elsari magelord or something. Haunt: Might as well just destroy the relic at range most of the time. Would be auto in spirits, but don't really care here. Vampirism: Healing for you, and you and you and you... and lolz with anathema. Don't really see justifying a slot, though, especially without bloodbinder. Sacrificial Altar: Might be useful, but you have to be within 6 spaces, so maybe not, due to vulnerability. Scouring Jasper: Not bad, but I think Anathema or similar things are more useful. Jasper is a relic rather than a spell, though, which has the usual advantages there. Skull of Decay: I used to like using 1x Obsidian Venger to nerf my opponent's healing, while still being a decent champ, but he doesn't have that anymore, and he took a few other nerfs as well. Skull seems a little too situational, but until/if dark healing gets fixed it could see some use. (I know dark healing has a narrower range of abilities it works on, but it still doesn't work on half the stuff it says it should) Statue of Xulos: Mostly just for lolz, 2x2 relic that buffs exactly one champ, and even that not by a lot. Does this stack? Even so, for one single champ (and one that you don't actually mind dying half the time) it doesn't seem worth a slot. Tome of Hate: If graveyards/immortality/scry had ever hurt my shrine enough that I cared, this would be useful, but I haven't ever needed one. Witches' Hourglass: Elsari coven comes on many champs, but it's the sands of time ability that would make me consider using this. I've played jellebrium and sands seems pretty useful there. Cursed Blade: Anti-superchamp, and low cost means it will recycle often, but still... not sure it's worth a slot. Crown of Corruption: I've had some fun with this in other BGs, but the -5hp/attack means most of my champs couldn't make much use of it before dying, and after the initial surprise wears off, it's not too hard to play around. Soul Reaver: Pretty much the only champs that will have enough nora invested into them worth cleansing if something bad happens to them are likely already going to have either cloak or crown on them. Sacrificial Dagger: I like tempest crown better. Shield of Darkness: Useless on the best champ, lich king, and probably not worth the investment on anyone else.
The instant I posted it, I realized I should have mentioned something about the fact that it was skeletons in the title, but I didn't know that it could be changed. I'll do that now.
Hmm, I find those suggestions a little unusual. I'm running tomb lord with surge 1, and that seems correct to me. Drive is definitely useful, but tomb lord can hit pretty hard with that surge, and while you could possibly time drive to get an extra attack out of something with more damage than the tomb lord itself, other than the surge 2 champs, I don't think any of them hit harder than tomb lord. Maybe I'll try doing one surge one drive and see which I find better. For the riflemen, I do think they're pretty good, and I was using them until Crossbone was pointed out to me. Black Death makes for nice damage, and Accrue is great for early font capturing, and still decent late game as well. I counted my champs right now and there are 8 melee and 8 ranged champs. (2 boneshredder 2 boneblade 2 lerper 2 reaper) I have no idea which of those I'd cut, because they're all really good. There are nonchampion runes that I would be willing to replace with riflemen, but then I start getting into having too many champions (a very common problem for my decks; I'm often looking at 20 champs and can't bring myself to cut any, and then I don't have enough damaging spells or support runes) especially because I'm really really wanting to fit dusk creeper and ravenwraith in here too. I'd be most inclined to cut one graveyard, one cloak of skulls,, and then maybe one dark rising, and maybe the tormented priest. (although he's boost 3, so I dunno...)
average nora 79? wow you have a noraproblem there. I am not completely up to date, but cheap meele expensiv range is allways a good idea in FW. also no disarm? 2 GY and the unholy tomb? a shure way to lose the early game. What about 64 nora speed 7 animated blade with shatter, Decayed merc and boneguard infantrie?
Pox nora is not only about killing stuff. you also have to controll the board and attack fronts etc. with only expensiv champs you lack a lot of board presents .
wasn't sure which thread to bump with this, but I guess this one has a bit more detailed analysis of skeletons than the others so... hoarfrost dragon: seems cheap enough. he flies. he has an alt dmg type, alt attack type, aoe dmg, another dot type, magic resist.. and seems as cheap as the other beaters if not cheaper, and is still good vs enemy fliers. thinking running one in the deck wouldn't hurt.
Now that I have the skeletal lerpers up to level 2 so they have surge 2, I'm finding the lich kings aren't quite as necessary, so I'll probably cut one. I'm running the deck in its current form until I completely level it up, though.
After playing with this for awhile, I've got a few more comments: Removals: Lich King: His range is absolutely fantastic, and surge is awesome. However, that nora price tag is just enormous, and now that my skeletal lerpers are leveled, I have another source of the hefty surge:2 damage, so 2x of this guy isn't quite as important as it was. Given that he's got immortality, and his high price tag and that he's often a late deploy (except sometimes when I get him turn 1 on the draw, he's a good font capturer) I think that dropping him down to 1x is probably the right thing to do, as much as it pains me to let one go. Cloak of Skulls: Awesome on boneshredder, obviously, but I think that two copies are redundant. I'm going to cut one to make room for other things. Altar of Bones: Only really good in very long games. Even then, it's actually somewhat antisynergistic with surge 2 on stuff Plus, the lich kings aren't skeletons (and I'm eyeballing ravenwraith and dusk creeper, which also aren't skeletons) Any game that I survive the initial rush, I've typically won, with this or any other BG. (KF and IS are by far the most dangerous to face in the early game, because they have so many strong, cheap, boring champs) Proven its worth: Dark Rising: I had one game against IS earlier this week where I was losing really badly. Being IS, there was a ridiculous amount of cheap meat on the board that was, nora for nora, simply more efficient than what I had. I'd lost all the fonts, and my opponent had about ten champs on the board, most of which were in the font closest to my shrine that I'd just lost. I had just a few champs on the board, but in particular I had a skeletal lerper near my opponent's shrine. I looked at my runes, and crafted a cunning plan... I moved my lerper up near my opponent's shrine, saved all my nora, made a half-hearted attack with my few champs against his horde, and passed the turn. He left my lerper alone, probably thinking he could win before it could do anything. He wreaked more havoc against the few champs near my shrine and the closest font, and ended his turn. I grin, play two dark risings (ten skeletons = +20 damage on my lerper) move my lerper up, hit his shrine for 34 (my first hit against it; he'd scryed a few times though), play mobilization, hit it again, and destroy it. He outnumbered me by three fonts to zero, and about ten champs to 2 or 3, and thanks to dark rising x2, I pulled off a victory that I completely did not deserve. (he could've played better there, but even so, dark rising made it happen) On the fence: Tormented Priest: I don't know wtf shrive is supposed to do, but every time I used it, it didn't do anything (I thought it was supposed to remove temporary positive conditions and deal 5 damage per, but every time I tried using it for that, it didn't work) so I ditched shrive for afflict. Dark healing is also pretty bugged, and doesn't trigger on a lot of things it's supposed to. Still, the priest has boost skeleton 3, and that alone makes it quite useful. I'll have to look at other boost champs, because I really want to replace him. He's got low damage, low survivability, shrive is either broken or has a garbage description, and dark healing is buggy. 2nd boneshredder: He's really tanky, and having one for cloak is great, but he's a fat 2x2, and he has low damage output. I might remove one. Crossbone: Ranged unit is nice, disease can be useful, but again, low damage output. Still, he seems better than rifleman, I think. Skeezick Boneblade: Great in some scenarios, but weak in others. Very cheap nora cost helps keep him viable, though. Always a pleasant draw against SL, or against any BG that tends to bunch up its champs. (Tempest Crown is great in that scenario) When not in either of those scenarios, though, he's a fairly weak rune that usually doesn't get deployed. Skeletal Reaper: Got these leveled up, and running black death and souldrinker. Problem is, black death doesn't proc when using scythe whirl, so you have to use his basic attack if you want to do +50% damage against diseased champs. Not sure if that's intended or a bug, but it sure seems like a bug to me, because black death states +50% damage to diseased champs, without any conditions like 'only with basic attacks'. Domination: I'm torn between this one, because half the time it's amazing, and the other half of the time it just sits in my hand. Cliffjumping is... fun, and I've gotten a few really nice plays with high AP enemy champs killing something for me. One really epic game vs IS I dominated a brewmaster that had something like 12 defense and ran him through a pool of lava to kill him off, which turned the tide of the game for me. Tempest Crown: Not too much in the deck is really tanky, so these aren't as useful as they are in some of my other decks. I still like putting it on lich king or a lerper, and occasionally a boneshredder or boneblade, but two copies might be too much. I'll probably leave two in for now, though. Going to try: -1 lich king, -1 cloak of skulls, -1 altar of bones +1 dusk creeper (I want to give the extra range thing a try. 9 range lich king...) +1 (or maybe +2) ravenwraith (psychic damage, range 1-2, vengeful, vaporize, souldrinker; great rune) +1 anathema (if not +2 ravenwraith) (or +1 other damage spell) Seems to be just about the most useful FW damage spell. Might try 1x something else just to have more variety, rather than two of the same rune, so that in situations where one attack spell is mostly useless, the other one might prove effective. edit: Just noticed one of dusk creeper's other upgrades is improve damage for race, so I'm going to use a 2nd creeper in place of tormented priest. One will use improve damage, the other will use improve range.
With the Lich king what you should really do now is run 2x voidhowlers with repurpose! Just run him up to a less than 12 hp unit or 2 if you can set it up and repurpose him into the lich for a huge buff and a free voidhowler or 2
a question about voidhowler. if all you did with one was to repurp him at full health in range of at least 2 enemies, didn't get a spawn, but boosted a key champ like LK, would you consider that an efficient enough use of the runes/nora involved? I ask this because that's what I consider the least you can do with the unit. And if that's still a good play, then anything above and beyond that is just added goodness.
I'd have an absolutely awful hard time cutting two runes for voidhowler+repurpose, but I can definitely see it being a good play. I can't believe I missed voidhowler; I was aware of that rune, but I had absolutely no idea it had the skeleton racial! I do use repurpose in probably 90% of my FW decks, but I didn't use it here because most of the champs in this deck are fairly expendable, and don't have high damage/hp on their own, and very few of them are tanky, the main exceptions being the boneshredder and the lich king, as well as the 2x ravenwraiths I have been using lately. Repurpose would also synergize with vengeance on the ravenwraiths. I don't think 2x copies would be necessary, particularly with the FW faction bonus, but one would be an asset if space can be made. As for the value of that combo, the 12 sonic damage in AoE 3 is worth similar to an area spell like anathema. It's not quite as good because it's harder to position (unlike a spell that you can just drop in the back lines, voidhowler has to be able to actually get to where he needs to be, and terrain/enemy champs could be in the way, he might not have the AP, etc) but I'd say that hitting 2-3 champs like that is worth like 30-40 nora. Assuming an undamaged voidhowler, a champ would get +4damage and +24hp, and on boneshredder, ravenwraith, or lich king, that would be very useful indeed. (you'd also have to position the champ correctly; for LK with teleport, that's easy; for boneshredder with his fat 2x2 butt, that's hard) Since that's basically the standard use of repurpose, I'd value that at the 35 nora cost of the spell itself. If I ran voidhowler with rabid 1 so he was 71 nora, I don't think it would be ideally efficient to do that play if a spawn weren't available, but if you got even one, it would be worth it for sure. (the other thing about the combo is you might be forced to hit one or more of your own champs with the sonic damage, which decreases the value of the play) Still, even in a vacuum, the voidhowler isn't a terrible champ. I really like range 1-2, for instance, and rotting blows (which seems auto to me compared to defile corpse) is quite useful. I'll definitely keep it in mind when making future revisions.
Oh, hmm... didn't realize that. Both are still solid runes, but it's a lot harder to justify inclusion knowing that.
