Treefolk are getting a lot of stink recently, and are surprisingly one the main factors of anger in this game, that said I'm not taking away from the fact that there are other things wrong with this game, but sadly. Within our foliage, lies a giant issue. If things arent changed fast, this game is going to slip quickly back into the state SoE left us in, no discredit to the devs or the current council cause I know how hard everyone is working but this NEEDS to happen now. Patriarch,Dryad,FlameMage,Treecaller,Launcher all need a considerable hit. Here are some of my listed suggestions for council. Please take them with a grain of salt cause things can be changed and nothing is final with Gedden, and please if you feel like im picking on treefolk, you're damn right. Negative opinions are not welcome, feedback however is welcome.. Keep it amicable. Well I'm going to start by specifically focusing on Treefollk, I'm not trying to appease the masses. Personally I just find their power level absurd, the main issues is that already good stats being boosted into crazy levels. Kthir forest has access to some considerable boosts Via Fan Faire (Ally K'thir +7hp/+2dmg) Battlemaster 3 (+2dmg/+1 def) Greenhouse (+3dmg/+1def/+1spd) Banner (+5hp/+1dmg) Boost Treefolk 3 (+3dmg/+6hp/+1def) Take Root (+2dmg/+2def/+5hp/+1rng With those numbers, all but Fan Faire are achievable in any given game, which leaves us with some considerable stat modifications. HP cap +16 (23 with fan faire) DMG cap +11 (13 with fan faire) DEF cap +5 SPD cap 1 RNG cap 1 If we take a look @Gnarlwood Grappler he showcases some of the things i'll be going over. Base HP 65 - Reachable HP 88 Base DMG 8 - Reachable DMG 21 Base DEF 2 - Reachable DEF 7 With a nora cost of just 57 up-front While these stats are a considerable amount there is some setting up required beyond all these numbers, however in I'd say 85% of all matches played with treefolk can easily near these levels. It was smart to cut the stacking clause on greenhouses, which helps limit these insane stats. But as I said, I feel it's to easy to hit conditions like this. Gnarlwood Grappler is super efficient as is, but combined with things like this he becomes a huge issue. His base kit is pretty awesome as is, with the second upgrade set being centered around harassing he provides a good roll. Suggestion: Drop base HP to 45/DMG to 6/DEF 2 zero. Now if we take a look at a more beefy champ like @Gnarlwood Launcher we can start to see a trend. He's another really efficiently stat heavy champion with his base kit. Huge range threat with Farshot, and does a good job at Crowd Control with Stone Bomb. With the levels already listed heres just how bad he can get. Base HP 55 - Reachable HP 78 Base DMG 12 - Reachable DMG 25 Base DEF 0 - Reachable DEF 5 With additonal buffs of +1 RNG/+1spd Suggestion: Drop Base HP to 50/DMG to 9/remove farshot Next we'll take a look @Gnarlwood Patriarch he's far to cheap for the utility he provides via shroud/Boost, while Lethargic and Vuln fire are both hindrances, he still does the same thing when these things are active, Vuln Fire is negated with willowind, so the -10 nora is basically just a big discount and with Lethargic he's just a monster for his nora cost. His presence alone wins games providing evasive to a largely highly defensive theme. Base HP 56 - Reachable HP 79 Base DMG 8 - Reachable DMG 21 Base DEF 2 - Reachable DEF 7 Suggestions: Keep base stats the same, other than HP - reduced to 49 - Remove Boost Treefolk 3 - Remove lethargic add growth 3 *units with radius of 1-4 are healed X amount. Nora from 56 to 65 Next I'll be focusing on Elven Treecaller, post revamp she had ripples/summon sapling which I had used exclusively in my De'lim BG, it was quite powerful being able to abuse the form switch bug. Now with overall efficiency of runes increasing and her defensive offensive kit she's a huge boost to treefolk being a nice toolkit champion. I won't get into her stats much, but some simple changes could be made to easily fix her and set her in a reasonable level. Suggestions: Remove Natures blessing/Remove take root/Add plant regen 1/2/3 (set one) add Healmass2 for take root. cost stays the same. **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ***** **** **** **** ****
Not currently finished with this post, but this is the rough draft. I still have a Bane Shift load of stuff to add.
Keep in mind that Tree Form grants Plan Regen 1 and so upgrading Plant Regen 3 isn't ideal. Also, I'm pretty sure people will complain if Elven Treecaller gets Heal Mass (though I'm sure KFers would like it). I do agree that Take Root isn't needed on her.
After treefolk is neferd to the ground let us all play with dragons. Whats not to like ? Surge 2 champs (Dragon Handler, Skywing Rumbler,Vex, Vindrax (only Surge 1)) Imortality for all + Reveal (Transmission Relay) Sub 70 nora champs without lumbering Detection (Skithmaw Hunter) Alt Damag (Acid, Electro, Poison, Fire) Spell based cleanse,dispel,shatter + antirelic Instakill (Fruit+Transfusion) Quicken,Quickenig Prestige on demand if needed and deckspace (Legion Standard) To sum it up: no need for saplings thanks to surge 2. Bye K'Thir Tree deck
I'm not trying to nerf Treefolk into the ground, I'm just trying to remove some of the utility treefolk currently has. Most champs have 2-3 different uses (Elven Treecaller in particular) this isn't acceptable by today's standards.
Don't get me wrong. In the past i had a lot of fun with treefolk, but currently dragons seem superior. Perhaps i just like to play powerful surge bgs. (Ok trees have more style but you can't have it all.)
One thing I thought about is how Flamemage has two unique abilities for KF (Cleansing Flame and Flame Siphon). It seems like an easy change to move Flame Siphon from Flamemage to Outcast of the Flame (replacing the Confuse Attacker upgrade). Perhaps replace Flame Siphon with Fester on base for Flamemage? So, in short... Flamemage of the Circle- Loses Flame Siphon from base (-5 nora). Gains Fester on base (+4 nora). Outcast of the Flame- Confuse Attacker removed from upgrades (-6 nora). Flame Siphon added to upgrades (+5 nora). These changes would still give Devotee decks a certain level of fun options but spreads them out. Outcast of the Flame could use the help while Flamemage gets toned down.
I'm following this and will be back with suggestions, though it's worth mentioning that Gedden mentioned in the latest Q&A that large champions are getting about -5 Nora with the most recent algorithm and that may be changing, which would affect the costs of Patriarch, Launcher, and others. Also, one big factor contributing to the low cost of treefolk is the presence of multiple drawbacks (another is the 5 base speed). Revoking some of these, as you suggest with Lethargic on Patriarch, would help normalize the cost of many treefolk. Patriarch without his drawbacks is a respectable 70-74 nora and doesn't really gain much in the way of performance for losing them (Lethargic is only a slight annoyance and Vulnerability Fire can be negated). Grappler isn't slow, but he has almost no abilities of consequence and a drawback. He's all stats. If he actually had abilities, he would cease to be cheap. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I hope we can find ways to balance them using rather than ignoring the costing algorithm. Subtractions in stats and abilities result in subtractions in nora and vice versa, but these can be offset by sandbagging or replacement with less efficient alternatives. The big difficulty (and the reason I'm still ironing out my suggestions) is that we don't know what stats are worth, and certain champs will likely need health adjustments at least.
Also, has anyone ever noticed that some champions lose their activated abilities when they change forms while other retain them when they change? For example, Elven Treecaller can't summon a Sapling when in Tree Form but Wood Marshal Druid can summon a Sapling in Flame Skitter Form. It seems like the various forms should be unified some.
I've been waiting for your response. Unfortunately tree folk are all about the boosts which aren't supposed to be taken into consideration. Grappler is the best example of the discrepancies... He can be boosted to unreal levels and lateral changes to stats is the best option I see now which unfortunately goes against the coating algorithm.. Which is where this grey area appears. How are we to nerf champions stats (which is underlying issue with treefolk) without drastically decreasing costs my proposed -20 hp would effectively make grappler 24 Nora cheaper and with the boosts still would make him an insane piece So to reiterate, how are these lateral stat changes possible without going against the costing algorithm, and increasing efficiency. The +5 for lumbering would be a good start but, also we can't just start swapping base abilities around to change champions Nora cost by 1 or 2 points. Things need to manually adjusted to achieve "balance"
If that makes sense I'm kind not at home so my thoughts are kinda unfocused but those are my "main" points. Obviously something needs to be done be sensibility is a big issue as well as not completely gutting the theme.
That's where knowing what effects the stat changes would have on cost would be helpful. But we do know that the cost of excessive health was reduced with the latest algorithm, so Health can probably be reduced by a sizable amount without dramatically reducing the cost of a champion (it must be much less than 1:1 or champs wouldn't have stats at all). Vulnerabilities can be reconsidered (or price adjusted if they are a global issue). Sandbag abilities applied. Depending on whether or not they pull the trigger on the Size reduction or not, all of the big trees may be getting a nora hike. Applying this to Grappler, his stats can probably be reduced and the difference made up with just another suitable base ability (Cost + X) and/or losing the vulnerability (Cost + 6). This way he costs the same, but instead of bringing a 1:1+ health ratio and higher stats he has some semi-useful ability and/or is only as suceptable to fire as everything else. Really it's just trading an occasional disadvantage for reduced efficiency, which affects a champ 24/7. Another cost leveling possibility is forcing him to have Entangling attack (10 Nora) which it turns out is a less effective and less efficient version of Clamp (5 Nora). If Domain Vegetation costs more than 2 Damage and 1 Defense base, it could be swapped with the real stats to make them dependent on the terrain. I'm not really disagreeing that Grappler could use stat changes (that 65 Health should go for sure). Just digging through abilities, considering the champs, and seeing what I can come up with. I'm also soaking up everyone's input and seeing if I can apply it to satisfying effect.
100% my issue soaking up input and applying it a satisfying effect. Things will be changed but I hope it's not to much but i feel most of my suggestions are reasonable.
This doesn't just go for Treefolk, but I am not a fan of manual cost adjustments and agree with Gorebucket that the best way to buff/nerf champs is to work with the system. The reason I don't like manual cost adjustment is that it starts to become more and more subjective. Look at Calcified Lurker, for example, and you'll see a champ with similar stats but has a few more abilities on base and no negative abilities. If you give Gnarlwood Grappler an arbitrary cost hike, why not one for Calcified Lurker? Anyway, here's an idea for Gnarlwood Grappler that won't make him even cheaper than he is now... Gnarlwood Grappler- HP changed from 65 to 55 (-8 nora). DEF increased from 2 to 3 (+3 nora). DMG increased from 8 to 10 (+4 nora). Fearless (+2 nora) and Aggressive (+5 nora) added to base. He'd look like this after the change... Gnarlwood Grappler DMG: 10, SPD: 6, RNG: 1, DEF: 3, HP: 55 Base- Attack: Physical, Aggressive, Fearless, Take Root, Vulnerability: Fire Upgrade Path 1: Plant Regen 1/2/3 Upgrade Path 2: Constriction, Clamp, Ensnare Nora Cost Range: 61-66 It may not be perfect but it is an alternate idea. I do think Treefolk will remain pretty cheap, in general, as long as Vulnerability: Fire and Take Root are the theme's "racials."
Relatively random Immunities like Immunity: Frost and Immunity: Psychic could be added to base to raise the cost, alternatively.
See this Is the part that drives me absolutely mad, unless changers are made to everything else that effects treefolk (or any stat modification centric theme) the severity of abilities escalates drastically... Those changes to grappler for 61-65 Nora makes his ability set more intense given everything else that is easily applied. While effectively making him more expensive,it still does nothing to the overall usefulness of the champion and his abilities. If we take a look at AA for example his current ability set could literally be costed anywhere from 110-140 Nora and still be considered runnable. See Zevin for conformation..Removing stats shouldn't always come with a compromise to fit the algorithm . I'll expand more in a while.
Ive done a few suggestions off their algorithm , the only way to increase price without changing stats or making it more powerful , is A) ask for a manual increase ( certain runes got it..support runes mostly)...B) Sandbag abilities.....just useless abilites to make him cost more
