i like some parts of the blood cleanse but i wonder why the bloodball is created on an adjacent space near the ability caster? that part doesn't really make much sense. if it were created near the targeted unit it might make some sense. also it doesn't seem to have any racial restrictions so this vampyre support might end up being played in all kinds of fw (and ud if its split) decks. i think it'd be better though if the skill was aoe(3-5) and had a high health cost(also not sure about the numbers) and the bloodball creating part was removed (i had another idea for bloodballs and i think if too many of these new or revamped vamps had create blood ball abilities it could get out of hand)and the support had something like drain 2.
By the target is where I meant for the bloodball to land. I didn't go for Vamps only because I think the fact that they can heal up from the damage taken is what makes it good in their theme. I kept the HP cost low so you can use it on targets which are close to death and didn't opt for AoE becasue FW probably shouldn't have that.
This is right on with what I was thinking, some vamps aren't bad but aren't good enough to see play at all because of upgrade lines. Example- I like archfiend with frightful blows and blood magic, but he's to flimsy for his cost compared to other factions melee units and he seems the same as every other vamp melee. You wanna start at the meh line and work our way down ?
I think we should come to a rough agreement on what it means to be a "vamp" theme before trying to rebuild existing champs. Part of that will mean negotiating the relationship between Vamps, Bleed, and UD.
1) Good points and it looks like we can trim and consolidate some already developing rifts. I personally agree we have to decide early about stealth and vaporize since its big in spirits. Just like FS starting to get into soultap which is big in spirits. 2) Yeah like with any of my suggestions balance comes next. I would choose carefully who I would add the blood fading light ability too but I definitely think if Vamps are splashed with stealth it should require some hoops. 3) Great point about UD and bleed correlation. This is a good time to discuss the crossover synergy with FW/UD vampyres. What makes a UD vamp and a FW vamp diff. Which skills should be exclusive to FW and UD and what is the common crossover skills. 4) If we move from vaporize or stealth then charm mechanics might be a damagine mitigation/CC mechanic needed to supplement lifesteal. 5) As far as bleed yeah maybe this is more geared toward UD but I still feel bleed and all those type skills could use consolidation and streamlining. So UD vamps get a globe and are healed etc and FW vamps get a globe and maybe heal but something else too
greater vampirism is crazy strong. i play elder bloodbinder alone for just that. though i wouldn't mind seeing it removed off her so she could become cheaper if it were placed on a relic or new vamp. ( i can't think any current vamps that i'd move the skill over to ) mysian lamia isn't bad though she did get hit hard back when shrunken got nerfed. i kinda like soul collectors simple design though i wish she had better synergy in vamps. it really does feel like desecrated zone 2 should be on her base. and her upgrade lines reworked. i think demonologist is fine as he is though a bit expensive. as for everything else i agree for the most part.
I don't necessarily think everything needs changing, stuff like Demonologist and Lamia are good as they are but don't do a great deal for the Vampyre theme. We can't expect to make everything auto include either. I like Soul Collector too but I'd rather have it actually do something while it sits back there collecting nora globes. I think swapping Depression and Incoherent Babbling for Hex and Invigorate immediately makes him a pretty good champ.
1) I'd say no vaporize in vamps, but i'm still not convinced spirits are even stealth ? Nether wrath- trickster shadestriker- hidden dmz shadowshank- stealth and shadowspawn lerper spectre umbral wulf Spirits in my opinion will always be about dmz, and soultap. The fact that they have 6 champs with a stealth like mechanic doesn't make me believe they are about stealth entirely. I can probably pull 6 stealth champs out of a lot of factions, that doesn't make those themes about stealth, just means their are a Bane Shift ton of runes for that theme and the dev's had to diversify a bit. 2) Blood fading light would be easily abused even with one champ having the ability. 3) Ud vamps should be bleed, fw vamps should be something more in line with what fw does well. I don't mind some fw vamps having bleed on ability lines, but I don't think that should be their main focus. 4) I like the idea of damage mitigation with fear, charm, abash, frightful blows etc. Psychological warfare also seems pretty unique and could become a staple for vamps, it's a strong ability that is pretty unique and could fit well with the fear aspect. Good suggestions on that 5) Ud vamps will always be played in a split unless they are expanded upon in ud, so i'm not worried what a ud vamp bg would look like because for me ud bleed is a theme and fw vamps are a theme.
I also like soul collector, my problem is with him surviving long enough to get those globes. I think hex would work well, his first ability line is actually pretty unique for a melee rune, it's his second line and stats that bother me so much. He wants to be melee but has no chance at being anywhere near the front lines for longer than a turn. Soul collector 8 damage 7 speed 1 range 2 defense 48 health upgrade line 1- depression, bleed, hex upgrade line 2- soulwrack, fear 3, still life might be too strong idk soul collection
I don't think it's a good idea to change things too much, especially in the bleed/LS department. Bleed is what synergizes with the UD stuff and Life Siphon is vamps trademark ability which sets them apart from UD bleed, I think it's important that we keep these abilities as options and build around them to maintain Vamps' identity.
Not really keen on the focus on stealth but I do like the 'fading life' stealth on bloodball collection idea as well as just having more access to hiddenMZ. Healing does seem to be their main shtick at the moment though but it's hard to capitalize on it. Perhaps illusions and bullwark or more ways to increase max hp. For example what if bloodballs had their enemy damage part removed and instead healed demons for a flat 4hp but increased vampyres max hp by 4 instead.
Life siphon isn't their identity, it's just an ability slapped on all of them because they couldn't think of something better. Just like bleed is slapped on them all also. Life siphon in my opinion is a less fleshed out version of bleed. I'd prefer to start from scratch with fw vamps and have a select few remain with bleed options on upgrade lines. Mostly though a clean slate for the majority as vamps haven't really been competitive ever with the current bleed and siphon module.
Stealth and charm can be easily hardcountered, and flavorwise it applies only to a subset of vamps, like boons barbs used to have. Similar boons would make great vamp racial - except they should target not closest, but first deployed - that way you get unique motivation to keep your early deploys alive and sacrifice later ones, growing your real "elders". Now current situation, cause we all know devs won't do anything new: Vamps have never been a ff theme, forget about this. UD/vamps used to be best with aoe powerturns - fascinate/phaseshift/relocates + echoes + bloodmagic spam and maso/heal selfdamage from echoes. Another good variation was creep-heavy vamps with RA/votaev/jyx/goyles/etc. Now both variations are pretty much dead because of multiple nerfs, while plain bleed/vamps are quite boring and weak. However ST/arcticgift/snowspinner vamps are still really good, and SL/taint/draksupport vamps are still decent. KF/vinetouch/devotee/naria vamps could be good if we had more slots and better relic relocation (initiate/sac/boost on narias rather than elves would be nice too), but as it is it requires a perfect draw to roll.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who realizes that. Stealth decks equate to cheese, they rely on your opponent not having Detect and are immediately shutdown when they deploy it. It's a stupid thing to base a theme around. Obviously they have Bleed and Life Siphon because they are Vampyres, it's not random.
Charm can be hard countered how exactly ? Distract I guess ? Charm is one of the only abilities in the game that can't be cleansed, if anything it's actually the only ability that can't really be countered. Stealth I agree can be hard countered, but that's why I suggested charm/stealth. If we leave the theme based around bleed and siphon we must as well just leave them as is and move on, because they won't become competitive with a few tweaks. Almost every vampyre needs a touch up for them to be decent. I could see them going into charm/fear based theme also. Leaving vamps as a split faction theme will just leave them in their current state, which is unplayable in full faction. I don't wanna see vamps tied into bleed, as bleed is mostly fleshed out, vamps could have their own way of playing and it might make them interesting. I think some vamps could remain ud/fw and they could keep their blood skills for splits, but I don't want every vamp to have a bloodied ability just because vamps like blood hurdy hur.
It seems like you just don't like Vampyres. Vampyres hypnotize *****es and suck their blood, if they don't do that then what is the point of having a Vampyres theme? There is no reason to shove stealth down the theme's throat in place of an ability which defines them as a theme. If you want Stealth then go with Spirits, they aleady have a ton of synergy for it with Utterdark Spectre and anything that can become incorp.
I don't mind it being on ability lines, but I don't want that to be the whole theme. An interesting thought could be vampyres get stronger after they feed and weaker after they haven't fed in a few turns, this could be their racial. I agreed stealth may not be the way to go, it just seemed to fit them as a whole. Please stop saying spirits are stealth, I already debunked why that was silly. Under depths demons have multiple units that have stealth abilities or mechanics, is the whole faction based around stealth now ? Fw spirits is all about soultap, incorporeal, illusions, ethereal, phase shift. Simply because they save some stealth mechanics doesn't make the whole theme stealth, in fact the theme itself is hardly based around stealth at all but instead them avoiding damage through the abilities mentioned and them soul tapping stuff. I'm not gonna keep talking about spirits anymore because this is a thread about vamps, if were gonna talk about spirits make another thread about what they should revolve around and we can discuss it there. Life siphon- This champion gets +1 damage and +2 defense after it has fed, this stacks 2 times and lasts 3 turns. Obviously this is just a thought and i'm sure we could come up with something better especially involving greater vampirism. I went with defense because that's what vampires are lacking with all their melee beaters. Average damage for vamps is- 10.7 so i'd round it up to 11 and they have a few champs with zeal damage, shrinking scion, thirst for battle, surge, commander, hunter bloodied. A couple more upgrade lines with hunter bloodied would be nice for the extra damage. Your right though, currently I don't like vampires because they are horrible and based around multiple different mechanics none of which are powerful enough to make them competitive. Also nobody here likes vamps currently, that's why were here =).
My main objective was just to steer you away from the stealth idea, I like this idea of a buff when they feed though. You gave me an idea for a racial, something like; Vampiric : Whenever this unit vampiric heals it gains +2 dmg for 4 turns, this stacks. I'd also had the idea of making it like the Leoss racial so it could give dmg, def or even speed depending on the champ and trigger only when within a certain range of another vamp to drive the cost down. Would basically be like their own Zeal mechanic but hopefully a fair bit cheaper.
+2 damage for 4 turns and stacking is too much and doesn't solve all their melee being soft. Vampiric- Whenever this champion vampiric heals it gains +1 damage and 1 rank of reflexes for 4 turns, this effect stacks. When a champion with greater vamporism is within 3 or 5 spaces (idk yet about the number of spaces) this champion also gets 1 rank of evasive, evasive ranks do not stack.
