I know a lot of FW players like this rune (but some don't). His original design was really meant to be a damage dealing ranged creeper. Improve Range became an important part of him at some point, but you can see here that most of his kit and stat line is actually about damage. (Of course, those stats and abilities wouldn't fly today.) So, assuming we move this rune away from Soul Collection + Stealth, would you like this direction? Additionally, I know Creepers got nerfed recently, so I'd like to hear a bit about how that's worked out from people who have tried it post-nerf and how this rune might fit into that. I know some people experimented a little bit right after the changes but I haven't gotten much feedback from it recently. ~ I am also open to finding another home for a Soul Collection rune as well (or just improving Soul Collector), so feel free to discuss that here as well.
If you want to improve Soul Collector, take Life Siphon off base. That's really all he needs. It's a 10 nora anvil on his head. For Dusk, not really a clue. Nerf him out of rotation if you want to be done with Collection/Stealth. Can't speak for anyone else, but FW has plenty of other stuff to jam in a BG. Maybe just take off the stealth ability and make him Forage/Assimilate for the best combo. For Creeps... that's... yeah I really don't know what to do about them. I've been trying various densities along with using Necro Hex, and it's just a god damn freakin mess right now. Like, sometimes just a single Necro Hex can still take over a game and then Bile Zombie makes both players cry, one for joy and the other just cry. Other times, you drop every creep in the deck asap, and Necro Hex for kills when you can, and get a grand +2 SDZ because your opponent plays Leoss and never drops a relic. They aren't a theme, they're a sometimes-module, one that can still break a game in half and other times feel like the deadest slots in the deck. Fortunately, Pox has more than one deck, as does FW, so these guys aren't missed too badly now that they're in the box. I'll try to come up with something more constructive later.
Basically after the change people dropped Worms like a hot sack of potatoes. I'll try doing some test games with them tonight so I can give you more feedback. Would love to see him more as a damage dealer but I'd like to see his kit also be more in line with the theme. Base: Necrosis, Attack Sonic, Improve Range Race: Worm U1: Unleash, Impatient, Forage U2: Tormented, Surge: Worm, Protective
In this scenario, do you mean that because they are playing Leoss you can only manage a couple of kills all game? Or am I misunderstanding?
I'd like to pretend this ability didn't exist, if he is going to change into a damage dealer. Pox already has surge abilities coming out of its ears. Unless surging off Carrionlings is suddenly going to become the worms theme.
There is already a surge worm ability. I'd prefer if Worms kept their interaction with the Shrine deployment zone. Initial thoughts is that they need more abilities that trigger off of the deployments to make them WORTH running/working. They have a great potential for synergy that wasn't designed for.
Replace that with any theme that stays deploy-light. Leoss are a bit heavier on units than some, but compare the Stitched matchup with the UD goodstuff matchup. Stitched pump out champions, and every champ counts for 2 on-kill triggers. UD, on the other hand, will often Sac or Ret their champs, and say pretty light on deploys unless they are going with the Maxx plan. Because all of the permanent -- real -- growth comes from kills, the ability hinges entirely on the matchup. It's like having your entire theme be Unholy Tomb; if your opponent plays a million summons, you swim in gold. It's playing a theme where your entire drive is the Swarm mechanic. Feast or famine beyond belief. Hence pretend it didn't exist. I know it already does -- Bloodworm and Eye. Worms do have plenty of units that work well with an expanding SDZ, this has actually come up when talking about their design before, and it's why I liked them: all of the support abilities on the weirdo C/UC worms have a great interaction with that expansion.
Just buff Soul Collector, and you can burrow the worm, no problem! At this state of worms, who cares now. FW have a very good runes for make him competitive on ranked games. Agree with the motion
I honestly feel like this rune's problems speak to a larger issue surrounding FW as a whole. Traditionally we've always been the backloaded attrition faction, focusing on reaping benefits from the deaths of our cheap, efficient champions and playing for the long game. While this has manifested in many ways over the years, the advent of Dusk Creeper as an affordable Soul Collection unit has permanently pigeonholed FW into this theme. While I won't deny that it is flavorful and relatively fun (for those playing it, myself included) there seems to be a general dislike of this strategy among the rest of the playerbase. I could get into the psychology of why, but doing so would be straying off topic further than necessary. Suffice to say, FW has its lovers and its haters, same as any other faction; the main difference being its haters are often far more vocal. Getting back to Dusk Creeper, it is at the point now where Soul Collection and Unholy Tomb basically carry FW through most, if not all, games. The reason for this is quite simple: to maintain a constant stream of undead meat the way FW was meant to be played, nora accrual must be sufficient to sustain this meat wave. Soul Collection along with the Boon of the Undead globe bonus allows for easy refunds at very low risk, while Unholy Tomb allows for extreme mid-late game nora gen at minimal risk. The combination of these low risk investments and FW's natural playstyle make it quite difficult to balance the individual runes without shoeboxing the entire faction. Take away Soul Collection and Unholy Tomb, and what is FW left with? No way to successfully implement their prime directive of "overwhelm, stall, redeploy". Take this away from FW, and the faction falls apart. When was the last time anyone saw a FW player run a deck without Tomb, Creeper, or both? I personally haven't seen such a deck in years (outside of Witches, who make up for their lack of nora gen with sheer champion efficiency). Even if it is somehow possible, one can't deny that doing so puts the FW player at a huge disadvantage over other factions. It's like asking a KF player to run a deck without any ranged units, or an IS player to run a deck without powerturn runes. You may be thinking "well Bane Shift, FW got along fine before Dusk Creeper came along!" And you'd be right in a way, but remember we've always had our go-to Unholy Tomb (which used to be 40 nora). I'm not suggesting a revolution of any kind; I want FW's playstyle to remain unique to FW as it's always been. I just think that if Dusk Creeper gets changed away from the Soul Collection gimmick, something else must be brought up to compensate, be it Soul Collector (my preferred choice) or some other rune. As for worms............I wouldn't even know where to begin. Part of the problem is that their racial is very random in its effectiveness. You either have amazing games, or shitty games; not a lot in between. I'd probably redesign the whole theme tbh. Since they're worms (known to proliferate within corpses), maybe change Necrosis to affect nora globes in some way. For example: Necrosis: Target a nora globe within 3 spaces. At the end of this turn, a Carrionling with max HP equal to the nora in the globe is summoned on top of it. Other friendly champions with Race: Worm gain 3 max HP and +1 damage when this ability is used. AP: 2 CD: 3 It would be at your discretion whether all worms would get access to this ability, or if it would be given only to specific ones (though I would suggest the latter). The next order of business would be adjusting most of the worm champions to compensate for this change. Perhaps create an ability that drops a nora globe on all adjacent spaces worth X nora. Maybe hand out Surge: Worm to a few key worms. Make most of them squishy and cheap to start, due to the scaling potential of the racial. Then splash in some worm-related spell support and you've got a decent theme with a very FW feel to it.
Would this be assuming that both Tomb and Creeper get changed? All for buffs to Soul Collector either way.
I have a feeling that Tomb is slated for a change no matter what, be it sooner or later. It would probably be best to resign ourselves to that fact now so that we can get it changed into something reasonable rather than letting the haters have their way and shoeboxing it.
Thanks for the quick answer, and agree with this part. Eight years in, the thing is finally gonna get hit.
how I feel: Nerf what you need to, as long as there are alternatives. Don't just kill the runes that's been making FW playable and not leave us anything to work with. For example: You can take away soul collection/stealth from creeper but please buff some other champs so that there are other choices, but not necessary better than dusk creeper(I.E. what kal said about Soul Collector). FW being FW, I feel that it should always from some way to generate extra nora--be it from spell or abilities like soulharvest(6spd corruptor?). If you want to take FW away from that route and have it more like other factions, buff our champs a bit and give us some protection spells(even tho this is boring and bland).
Improve range is essential for champs that have wrong range by design: any 1-1 2x2 (cc) limited ap pool 1-1 (bloodfiend) relatively expensive, but no ranged poke/closer/etc 1-1 (bloodworm, phoenix), even more if they have 6speed stupid midrange like 2-3, 3-4 (demonologist, seeker) and any range sentinel/blindfire/scythe whirl (lamia, tracker) Soulcollection is essential for: chops noraseep bgs lich "rise-oriented" bgs bgs that use PMartyr as a "loan" to afford deploying something really expensive, like FW/clops
The initial testing I did today has made me extremely sad concerning worms and necrosis in general. However I think adjusting champs to make them better may be the best route instead of reverting or modifying Necrosis again. Some issues I currently have: 1) Mindtheif I find does a lot of nothing and in the instances where he's effective it's basically sole because of stealth. No basic attack also means Necrosis is a bomb on him. I think he needs a big shuffle of abilities honestly. The sit there and do nothing is fine if he didn't increasingly get sandbagged and artificialy modified up the wazzoo. Compare him to any other shadowspawn champ and cry. U1: Dead Eater, Brain Eater, Fading Light U2: Reinforcement 1, Reinforcement 2, Forage Base: Petrifying Gaze, Adaptation, Attack: Physcic, Necrosis 2) Carrionling. With the change to Necrosis caroling no longer grows the zone by cycling through with cooldowns and combo-ing with Putrid/Blinking creepers death benefit. Now he's back to 30 nora of crap. Yes he's tied to Carrion Colossus spawns but for god sakes you can make em at least lower nora. Honestly if it was 20 nora would you play him? Perhaps Base: Attack Acid, Surge: Worm, Swarm: Carrionling U1: Dead Eater (Default), Necrosis U2: Sustain (Default), Forage Nora 20 This gives summons a flavorful purpose sustaining the main troops you want to stay alive while the actual deployable rune has the option to act as a surprise deploy/attack IF summoned on a nora globe. This allows the rune to effectively combo WITH putrid/blinking and be cheap enough to support those runes and Colossus. 3) Eye of Serkan Race- Worm (remove Undead) Base: replace Boon with Necrosis 4) Carion Colossus: Race- Worm Anthropod (no zombie/undead) Class- Demigod U1: SURGE: worm, Necrosis, Ravenous Torrent (to Chuck carrionling code) U2: Vivify, Unleash, Impatient BASE: Replace Boon with new Worm Lord (all Worms and Arthropods have Shrine defender) END GAME 5) MIndflayer Queen U1: Provision, Blood Tracker, Bleed U2: Ravenous Torrent (Chuck Carrionling), Sting 1, Latch On 6) Implant to Split FW/SP
You can make totally change dusk creeper, I don't mind. The only reason I run this guy in nearly every single BG is because I need him to win. I don't like him (probably no one does). But FW doesn't have great Champs like other factions do. So our power comes from Nora gen and spamming meat. When you're going to take away the Nora gen from dusk creeper and UT we will lack serious power. And if you are going to change the soul collector to compensate this guy will most likely turn into a 2x auto-include. I think the compensation has to come from our faction bonus somehow.
Soul Collector also has dead eater which means if he comes back into viability then we have a source of flat nora back on death sweet jesus praise the sun -- Nerf the hell out of Dusk already.
Soul collector is already pretty decent. He only has a few sandbags. But if he gets buffed we will be right from the start again. Soul collector will become dusk creeper 2.0
Except he won't be ranged DOT or stealthed 90% of the time. What would a buffed Soul collector look like ability and nora wise? He does have some sand but also I think gets a small discount modifier somewhere if I'm adding it up right. He could stand to lose life siphon from base and go down 5 nora. I think that should put him at 70 nora at his lowest build which is fine for the combo he brings to the table which will be potent.
