I disagree with a LARGE proportion of this list, alot of the changes are detrimental to alot of decks. However there are some good points too, Declare hunted on the fury is a great idea, forest lerper is a great rune I love playing him but that cost is not really necessary, things like Deep wounds change would ruin the Mairdeth, Call serpent definitely needs looking at perhaps something along the lines of dak rising but with 3 snakes instead. Rally the heard is great as is, I love playing centaurs and effectively gaining quickening and works so well with bliss and why anyone would want to stop stacking green house is beyond me again with thorn collection, everybody know TC +NW = True KF . There is alot in here that makes me question what KF you actually play because some of the champions you've chosen to nerf are barely meta as is how you can want to change the prodigy but not the apprentice mage is odd too. You say its an old list but also update it as you play so how much can you have played KF, I have been playing KF for the best of 5 years + on and off and agree completely with RedDain. This list seems to have been made by someone who finds a champ in a faction annoying to face and so decides it needs a nerf, or has tried to play them but isn't utilising them effectively
I tried hard to spend 30 minutes (that I don't have) on looking at the list to see what I thought might help. And while I could see my way into making some suggestions, I quickly decided that I'd much rather have the Faction as a whole looked at first. There are so many arguments that KF is weak. And so many arguments that KF is strong. I don't think it's either right now. I (as one of my alts) consistently win....and consistently lose to almost any faction. The point is that it's more the player than the faction. I do have to say the hardest thing for me to overcome is superchamps. By superchamps, I mean champs I can't kill.....that also deal tons of damage. With KF, we have virtually no defense. Yes, we have Boa. And thank god for that. But even the Boa isn't foolproof. There's a very simple counter. Deploy 2x2. EVERY SINGLE FACTION has this counter. Ok, enough about the Boa and on to what matters. With squishy units, superchamps decimate KF unless you run away. And running away is fine for a strategic purpose, but it's only temporary. You're supposed to be able to execute the retreat in order to take a breath, then push forward again. With superchamps that can't be killed or circumvented without heavy losses, it's nearly impossible without making the game take well over an hour. Maybe it's MY problem that I don't wish my games to take over an hour. Sure it's fine every now and then in some grand, epic battle. But every game? Nah. 30 minutes is what I think most people would use as a barometer. +/- 10 minutes. And no, I don't think the solution is reducing the game clock time. I'm in favor of increasing it, actually. I don't believe that increasing the turn clock by 20 seconds will increase game time by much. But that's another topic. I'm hoping the new greens will address the faction deficits and powers first, including KF/X. I'm totally in favor of the simplest solution here, which is keep it the way it is....but grant the KF half of the split it's +1 speed. Problem is solved. Simple, effective, and no downside/outrage from the community.
You two have only thought about the game from a perspective of power, and that's kind of sad. Power balance should come after mechanical balance, after a rune has been focused, it's fantasy affirmed. What about upgrade balance? No one seems to care much that most champion upgrades aren't competitive, that some are auto-include against others, that there are upgrades on many champions that are core to their identities. You're shallow, your perspective is shallow, and i guess i don't blame you. The game has become shallow too, but it doesn't need to be that way. I said i would post an explained list, and i will, i just don't have the time ATM.
I've drudged through the entire list (took maybe 2 hours spread across several days). I've made an explained list so go nuts. The typos are an extra bonus. Isn't it nice to get things for free? KF Initiatives Explained
@LordKinjo That's weird, I find that one of the easiest things to overcome is superchamps. When your opponent invests a lot of nora in just one dude that you can constantly pacify, visage, time slip, vortex, etc. you'll come out ahead.
You want to remove Soul harvester from the Tireless Harvester, because it " confuses this champions fantasy & purpose " ? You want to take Nora Shield from K'thun, because " it doesn't fit well with his kit anyways" ? Elven Prodigy is "a mess" ? Elven Bard is "bad design" ? I dont even ..
Ambling frond has Amphibious, obviously because it is a turtle. Hill. Forest frond. Thing. Bah. But anyways adding Ponderous to base would make this rune literally unplayable, it barely has enough AP to manage to be an effective font harasser as of current; Ponderous would instantly shoebox him (lots of people consider him bad anyways, I don't but still.) And it's flavor text/class is significant to pox history as an easter egg that helps make the rune feel 'fun'. It has far more value then could be argued for it's original flavor text.
Yes, having a carnivorous butterfly that flutters around peacefully, granting comfort to & harvesting Nora from the local plant-life, while devouring the souls of it's enemies, brutally slain, is a confusing self conflicting fantasy. Soul Harvest conflicts with it's purpose because it's the only ability in it's kit that encourages it to be in the middle of the fight. Everything else is fairly passive, and i wonder if it needs a basic attack at all. Soul Collection is a much better fit for this champions kit. The upgrade choices on the Elven Prodigy are a mess. Elusive might as well be on base, because it's an auto-include upgrade & core to how she plays. Her upgrades aren't competitive with each other, plain and simple. You rarely see people play her with anything except for Elusive + Damage. That's a problem, but trying to balance out her upgrades made me realize she's a mess from a design standpoint and simple tweaks won't work. I'll address her entry later. I explained, and have explained before, why the current Elven Bard is the result of bad design. Rather, with K'thun, i meant to imply that Nora Shield fits the fantasy of a Shaman better than it does a Wizard. Read my proposals for Tree Folk's Blessing & Spontaneous Growth, and you will understand the direction i would like to see him taken in. The Ambling Frond's M.C. Frondalot flavor text should be kept as a LE version of the rune. It needs it's real flavor text back, it's dry without it. Ponderous is something i included to keep it within Font zones, as basically a moving/Stealthing/Shattering/Turtling/Attacking relic. It's power can be adjusted if the changes hurt the rune too much (they don't for it's cost), but mechanically, this is where i see it. Amphibious should be left, largely, as an FS exclusive ability, like Arctic for ST. There is no good, mechanical reason for it's inclusion on the Frond.
Not seen Kinjo in a LOOOOONG time! Why should factions have exclusive abilities anymore with the way the story and game was heading more and more abilities, races and themes were crossing the boreders. FW have a tortun in their faction now! I don't look at this game in a perspective of power, although it is something to certainly be noted when applying this change. I think that certain runes would benefit from all sorts of different things but when considering its overall power within the game it can become ridiculous.
Each faction should have it's own identity, it's own fantasy. Why have factions at all, if they're just going to be homogenized? It's fine for a faction to do similar things, but it should be doing those things in at least slightly different ways. Amphibious is a faction wide bonus, like Arctic for ST, it should stay that way to preserve the sense of unique identity for the faction. Again, that there is no good, mechanical or identity related reason for the Frond to have Amphibious. There are plenty of turtles that aren't aquatic creatures anyways; they are called tortoises.
So only IS gets cleanse, only KF gets heal? Only UD gets fire damage and fire eater? Only FW can do disease damage, or get any Mobilize? Good luck explaining that.
I don't see Artic or Amphibious as a factions identity but more to the runes theme, the frond is a woodland turtle why shouldn't it get turtle and be amphibious. If a runes theme fits the race, "factional" or flavour then why should it be disallowed that bonus because its not in that faction, I'd expect any undead champion to have boon of the undead whether it as FW or not. The same as somthing that was themed to have come from the tundra to have artic. The same way that creep and call isn't really necessary on tree spider as it would rarely get to have the bonus in KF currently but it fits the flavour of the rune. Also neither turtles or tortoises are amphibious yet all the tortuns have amphibious
No, but the way in which IS has access to cleanse should be different than the way KF does. Factions shouldn't have carbon copies of each others spells, relics, & equips; nor should largely faction specific abilities like Arctic & Amphibious be given out at random. There are plenty of other ways that champions can avoid movement restrictions. There are less than a dozen champions outside of either FS or ST that have access to either Amphibious or Arctic respectively. There's no reason that these champions cannot be addressed individually. Disease & LoL should be traits primarily attributed with FW. This doesn't mean that other factions shouldn't have access to them, but they shouldn't be core themes. The same is true for UD's focus on Fire DMG. Mobilize is an FW specific spell. No other faction should have access to AP gen exactly as FW has it through Mobilize. If you don't see Arctic or Amphibious as faction related, then maybe you should take a look at how many champions outside of FS & ST have them, and why FS & ST have them in the first place. Mechanically, there is no good reason for the Frond to have Amphibious. It doesn't make sense, in confers no benefits. Who says it's even a turtle? It looks like a Tortoise to me. I know that Amphibious technically (scientifically) means that the animal lays it's eggs in water, but most people use the term to refer to creatures that can live in both land & water. This is how i am using the term now.
But that just limits the game, as far as I can see there isn't that much cloaning of champs spells relics etc. Other than the new relic spells like over growth. And if it is such a small number then I don't see why it should be addressed these champions must obviously suit having amphibious or it is something suited to them. If it was on a champion like Bowmage or Ancestral Avenger I could understand your quibbles but on an obvious amphibious looking champ like frond to which it suits then I don't see the need. Something like the hoarfrost Dragon suits Artic and its obvious why its on there. Should it really for the sake of being a faction buff have to be changed to a different term or removed. I dont think so. And these themes like UD fire we're a long ago, but Demons and Dark elves are also a theme and now spiders. Does this mean other factions shouldn't be allowed those too, even if i wanted to make a KF UD fire bg? Like I actually have. If it was in your version then I wouldn't be able to be as creative with such themes and split decks and would detract from my own personal experience Ok allow me to expand better, yes it is faction related but I don't see it as faction exclusive I don't think any one faction should ever get an exclusive ability
Give me one good reason that the Frond should have amphibious, besides "because it looks like a toitle! ". The game should be limited. It's huge! There are thousands of runes, and if broad faction themes don't define them, then what does? Don't make assumptions about champion runes. There are plenty of old runes that don't make much sense because they haven't been addressed in so long. Take the Draksar Constrictor for example. There is no mechanical or identity related reason for this unit to have Amphibious on base. Same with the Parasitic Fesh for upgrades. The champions outside of ST that have access to Arctic mostly have a fantasy related reason to have it. They either share a race with something that should Have Arctic, or have a theme related reason (Dragon of ice, Spirit which wields ice, etc.). The Frond does not wield water, it's not a Tortun or a Mirefolk. It's just a beast, a Plant Beast.
Ugh. Life was so much nicer when Prami was on the ignore function.... got curious and took him off ignore, and it's like when your weird friend sends you that really nasty video clip and you watch it at work and get fired. Back to ignore you go.
It triggers plant regeneration on dirt & vegetation too. Should everything with Plant Regeneration have Amphibious? It's a broad ability so that it can be placed on champions that have synergy with at least one of those things, not all 3.
