Given how focused Dancer is on pulling people in (Fascinate), Antagonize seemed like a natural way of preventing your opponent from using Fascinate as free movement towards a different champ they want to bash. Her flavor text implies she demands your attention lest she punish you for it. Antagonize + Deflect: Fire gives her situational durability. I like changing Bounty Hunter to Hunter: Protectorate, but I specifically avoided adding Shadow Shift because he has 7 SPD and has access to Cloak of Long Knives (+2 DMG/Shadowstrike/Shadow Shift). Being a Rogue, I didn't want to completely devalue that equip by providing both Shadowstrike and Shadow Shift. I agree that Searing Touch is a bit expensive; I'd drop it to 5/6N.
I'd like to inquire about the Imp Familiar. He's a legendary rune that has a lot of potential. Imp Familiar: [0 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 0 DEF | 42HP | 72 Nora] Path 1 = Wizard Foe / Mobility / Familiar(which is my favorite part about him yet it is broken) Path 2 = Tempo / Flame Charge(the real reason why I use this champ) / Favor Base = Doom, Mischief, Replicate My issue with this champ is first the broken ability and second his price. In my opinion he is unuseable because of his nora price. Compared to other units with replicate(ie: oozing slag 55 nora, magma bunny 58 nora, Forglar Jellyfish 43 Nora). magma bunny and oozing slag both have healing capabilities which in my opinion make them a little OP for how cheap they are. The way i've been keeping the imp familiar alive is by using a hekatian fleshgrinder( 30 nora and also bugged). I'm guessing that he is so expensive because of Doom being on his base ability. So I'm wondering if Doom and Flame charge could swap places and if that would make him cheaper if you didn't select doom. I would also be willing to get rid of Doom all together to make him cheaper. He's a legendary champ and in my opinion not worth running at the moment. Thoughts?
(Feedback for Bok suggestions) Bok Warden - [12 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 1 DEF | 48 HP] Path 1 = Aggressive | Blitz | Punish Path 2 = Declare Target | Detection 3 | Pin Down Base = Arrowshot | Attack: Physical | Detection 1 | Flight | Precision (Default upgrades = Punish + Pin Down) I like the direction you're heading so moving Detection 1 to base seems like a great way to free up space for more interesting options (Declare Target aka "listen to my orders") while supporting her Ranger class. I've read your thread on Pace and don't think it's appropriate for her if changed to that. Blitz (her old upgrade) makes more sense as an alternative in (damage) Path 1 while Path 2 is about ranged utility. I have to agree that adding ranged to UD is problematic. She does seem intended in range, but I think "the UD way" is with ranged abilities like Declare Target and Pin Down. Gedden made a good point on a recent stream that even if he only released 1 ranged UD champ every year, eventually there would be enough to make a largely ranged UD BG which goes against what he feels UD is all about. Hekatian Bloodguard - [10 DMG | 6 SPD | 1-3 RNG | 1 DEF | 40 HP] Path 1 = Blood Dispersal | Drive | Invigorate 1 Path 2 = Bloodtracker | Blood Knowledge | Drain 2 Base = Attack: Magical | Bleed | Flight | Pet: Screaming Imp (Default upgrades = Drive + Blood Knowledge) I agree her damage is low, but 1-3 RNG (previously 1-2) seems more appropriate than 2-4 given her whip. She only nets +1 DMG due to the downgrade from +4 UD DMG to +2 UD DMG, but I don't see her as a heavy damage dealer. Attack: Magical also improves the effectiveness of her lower damage output. I agree/disagree that Blood Dispersal is overpriced. The problem, here, is she lacks the damage to make it competitive with Heal Mass. Adding Blood Knowledge to her second path gives her an option to gain damage for better healing. It's also a great default upgrade to pair with Drive. I swapped Bleed with Blood Dispersal to lower her cost and added Bloodtracker in place of Drain 1. I'm not a fan of Invigorate 1 (it doesn't fit her at all), but I'm unsure of what to replace it with. Regarding her pet, dropping it would allow for moving Blood Dispersal back to base to add Bloodlust to path 1 but conflicts with her rune art. I agree it dilutes the effectiveness of her role and would support a change, though. Hekatian Voidraker - [11 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 1 DEF | 45 HP] (Class: Shaman?) Path 1 = Aerial Supremacy | Fearless | Unstoppable Path 2 = Confuse | Void Strike | Void Touch Base = Attack: Magical | Flight | Logistics: Life Siphon | Void Shield (Default upgrades = Unstoppable + Void Touch) Her flavor text implies she's not interested in blood so I can understand why Relocate: Blood Ball was removed (I'd like to see it returned elsewhere in the Bok "theme," tough). I like your suggestion to add Aerial Supremacy and Life Siphon (added to base as her previous Logistics version). I agree Void Touch is borderline sandbag. Her name makes her a possible candidate for Void Strike and Confuse is an interesting ranged alternative to Void Touch. Hekatian Arbiter - [12 DMG | 6 SPD | 1-2 RNG | 2 DEF | 48 HP] Path 1 = Arrow Throw 3 | Assault | Impaling Strike Path 2 = Bloodlust | Bloodseeker | Fury Base = Attack: Physical | Bleed | Dodge 1 | Flight (Default upgrades = Assault + Bloodlust) I agree she's a tad squishy and would revert her to 2 DEF in addition to more HP. Dodge 1 is a great idea, but I'd put Arrow Throw 3 in path 1 rather than on base. Her cost would only drop 2N if she had Dodge 1 and Arrow Throw 1 on base (before stat changes). Bringing back Assault makes her a threat to ranged (beyond just Dodge) and combos well with Bloodlust. Bloodseeker grants her mobility in a Bleed BG after using Impaling Strike. (Tangent: why did Barbarian Archer gain Impaling Strike?!) Unhinged Bok - [12 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 1 DEF | 48 HP] Path 1 = Aerial Supremacy | Charge 3 | Enrage 2 Path 2 = Antagonize | Rampage | Strike Base = Attack: Physical | Flight | Psychotic Break | Fury (Default upgrades = Enrage 2 | Strike) Looks good to me! I vote we rename her Bok Groupie ;P
Notes: Liking what you have for Warden. I'll be content as long as she gets pin down somehow. UD still gets +4 up to 1-3(It's the faction's favored range), you're right about melee++ making more sense since she's using a whip. 1-2 would be fine, 1-3 is something people wanted/Sok almost did(even considered it as an upgrade option; didn't want the precedent). Assault doesn't trigger Bloodlust. I don't really want to just give out Bloodseeker...it already makes no sense that the minotaur has it. With the ranged attacks, 7 speed, and anti-range arbiter has plenty, she's just expensive. I still like Warmonger, fits the style/text (Also can her wings flap now, pl0x ?)
Is it really 3 RNG?! I don't know why, but I've had it stuck in my head that UD's bonus downgraded after 2. I am the biggest noob evar! I believe I'm confusing Aggressive's basic attack with Assault's "base attack" (they should fix the wording). I r dumb again. For Bloodseeker, however, Arbiter would be the only other Bok with it and I feel it's somewhat appropriate given her kit. It lets her close with ranged champs while providing a speed boost (she has 6, not 7) at the cost of lower damage (no Bloodlust/Fury). I agree it was odd to give to Minotaurs, though. #NerfMinos2014?
I chose Arrow Throw 3 because of the increased DMG so that it's competitive with attacks granted by Assault and AoE line damage of Impaling Strike. Also, if you can think of something more appropriate than Bloodseeker I'm all for it; I just found it the best fit at first glance.
I'll throw a few baits for DE Monk. Remove Arrowthrow and Dodge mechanic, add Counterattack: Ranged and Multiattack as upgrades for the second path. Leave Dodge 1 at base.
You just made him more expensive, and gave him Arbiter's problem. Please check costs before making ability change suggestions. Also, can we have a list of units with dull upgrades? Especially those with 3 ranks of the same ability, I'm mostly thinking we should try to either completely replace those or at least one rank for example: Bok Mistress' fire upgrade path is currently Charm 1, Charm 2, and Charm 3. It could instead be Charm 1, Abash, Charm 3 or for a completely different route: Abash, Charm 2, Entangling Attack.
Yeah, I'd like to make a list. So as to suggest alternatives that work but keep them around the same cost. I was asking everyone, since It'll be a lot easier if as denizens of the depths we get together to make it happen. That is very generous of you though.
I have gone through the list of champions so many times for the various posts I've made it would just be a matter of copy pasta. I'll get started right away
My other suggestion is of keeping these upgrades, but reducing HP, Defense, and attack. Maybe completely take out Dodge. The goal is to make him less predicatable, forcing the opponent to see how to deal with him. He might end up a walking jelly, not like it's a surprise given he's barechested. And judging from his speed, his pants must be pretty much cloth. I suggest making him 8 or 9 attack, 0 def, 40-42 hp so Counterattack can't be abused with high hp. He becomes a frontline flurry of fist who can be taken down, but not before causing some harm. That should work.
(Only listed champions lacking a 3rd upgrade option if they didn't already have multiple ranks in an upgrade path) Abyssal Fiend (Multiattack 1/2 | Burn 1/2) Albino Katipo (Envenom 1/2) Angel of Pain (Rend 1/2/3) Ash Demon (Burn 1/2) Ash Maiden (Fire Aura 1/2/3) Ash the Bandit Prince (Multiattack 1/2) Aspect of Oblivion (Attack Charged 1/2/3 | Abuse Charged 1/2/3) Balefire Knight (Flamestrike 1/2/3 | Resistance: Fire 1/2/3) Bloodletter (Rend 1/2/3) Bok Enforcer (Battlemaster 1/2/3) Bok Gatekeeper (Defender of Chaos 1/2) Bok Guardian (Block 1/2 | Riposte 1/2/3) Bok Mistress (Charm 1/2/3) Bok Raider (Flamestrike 1/2/3 | Resistance: Fire 2/3) Bunny Lord (Leap 1/2/3) Captive Lorekeeper (Death Nova: Electricity 1/2/3) Cavernspawn (Rend 1/2/3) Cinderpede (Tunnel: Lava 1/2/3 | Lava-fall 1/2) Corrupted Cultist (Afflict 1/2) Corrupted Overlord (Lava-fall 1/2) Deep Elf Assassin (Poison 1/2) Deep Elf Manslayer (Rend 1/2/3) Deep Elf Masochist (Reflection 1/2/3) Deep Elf Mercenary (Melee Specialist 1/2/3) Deep Elf Monk (Pummel 1/2/3 | Dodge 1/2) Deep Elf Priestess (Poison 1/2 | Multiattack 1/2/3) Deep Elf Ritualist (Drain 1/2 | Hex 1/2) Deep Elf Scout (Detection 1/2) Deep Elf Summoner (Summon Imp 1/2 | Invigorate 1/2) Deep Leviathan (Searing Aura 1/2/3) Demonbarb Spider (Damage Shield: Physical 1/2/3 | Reflexes 1/2/3) Demonvein Vampyre (Rabid 1/2/3) Depths Doombringer (Rend 1/2/3 | Searing Aura 1/2/3) Ember Wasp (Flame Nova 1/2/3 | Evasive 1/2/3) Fire Elemental (Fire Aura 1/2 | Damage Shield: Fire 1/2/3) Fire Giant (Tough 1/2) Firemaw (Death Nova: Lava 1/2 | Tunnel: Lava 1/2/3) Firestarter (Tunnel: Lava 1/2/3 | Leap 1/2/3) Flame Skitter (Burn 1/2/3) Flameweb Spider (Damage Shield: Fire 1/2/3 | Pounce 1/2/3) Flowing Ember (Path 1 needs 3rd option) Gahlroon (Blood Frenzy 1/2/3 | Power Attack 1/2/3) Gahlroonling (Death Nova: Fire 1/2) Goblin Archer (Multiattack 1/2 | Retreat 1/2) Goblin Arsonist (Explosive Attack 1/2/3 | Burn 1/2/3) Goblin Brute (Berserk Attack 1/2) Goblin Gloombringer (Reflection 1/2/3) Goblin Spellkaiser (Magical Bomb 1/2/3 | Hex 1/2/3) Greater Pitspawn (Fear 1/2 | Curse 1/2) Grimlic (Fire Bomb 1/2/3 | Flame Nova 1/2/3) Grundelwulf (Berserk Attack 1/2/3 | Pounce 1/2/3) Grundelwulf Alpha (Regeneration 1/2/3 | Reflection 1/2/3) Hell Tick (Leap 1/2/3) Hook Fiend (Path 1/2 needs 3rd option) Imp (Path 2 needs 3rd option) Imp Alchemist (Path 1/2 needs 3rd option) Imp Deceiver (Charm 1/2/3) Imp Strangler (Rend 1/2/3) Imp Trickster (Path 1 needs 3rd option) Imp Vixen (Charm 1/2/3) Incinerator (Incinerate 1/2/3 | Burn 1/2/3) Jyx the Shadesworn (Rend 1/2 | Rapid Attack 1/2/3) K'lzik (Poison 1/2) Korona, Bok Huntress (Path 2 needs 3rd option) Lavaflow Devourer (Death Nova: Lava 2/3) Lavaspout (Death Nova: Laval 1/2/3/4) Magma Bunny (Leap 1/2/3) Magma Elemental (Terraform: Lava 1/2 | Explosive Attack 1/2/3) Minotaur Battlemage (Swap 1/2/3) Minotaur Culler (Multiattack 1/2) Minotaur Flamecrusher (Pummel 1/2/3) Minotaur Gladiator (Tough 1/2/3 | Melee Specialist 1/2/3) Minotaur Insurgent (Charge 1/2/3) Minotaur Portalwalker (Swap 1/2/3) Minotaur Sentry (Detection 1/2/3 | Evasive 1/2/3) Murk Demon (Path 1/2 needs 3rd option) Nefari Caverunner (Fire Bomb 1/2/3 | Tunnel: Earth 1/2) Nefari Dragon (Flamestrike 1/2/3) Nefari Fireslinger (Burn 1/2/3 | Flamestrike 1/2/3) Nefari Griefbearer (Conduit 1/2) Nefari Griefsinger (Sonic Aura 1/2/3 | Death Nova: Sonic 1/2/3/4) Nefari Guardian (Resistance: Physical 1/2/3 | Stat Bonus: Defense 1/2/3) Nefari Messenger (Initiative 1/2 | Regeneration 1/2) Nefari Reaper (Path 1/2 needs 3rd option) Nefari Siphon (Flame Nova 1/2/3 | Burn 1/2/3) Nightfall Spider (Cloak 1/2) Nightmare (Flamestrike 1/2/3 | Initiative 1/2) Pincushion (Damage Shield: Physical 1/2/3 | Damage Aura 1/2/3) Pit Dragon (Blood Frenzy 1/2/3 | Resistance: Magical) Pox Harbinger (Initiative 1/2 | Scry 1/2) Pox Renovator (Stat Bonus: Damage 1/2 | Stat Bonus: Health 1/2) Prince Malandur (Exertion 1/2/3 | Charge 1/2) Puppet Master (Possess 1/2/3) Redcap Twins (Rend 1/2/3) Rip Demon Alpha (Damage Shield: Physical 1/2/3 | Regeneration 1/2) Rust Demon (Acidic Aura 1/2/3 | Scour 1/2/3) Scorched Dwarf (Mason 1/2/3) Scorpic (Sting 1/2) Screaming Imp (Sonic Aura 1/2 | Knockback 1/2/3) Servile Brute (Berserker 1/2 | Berserk Attack 1/2/3) Shadow Master (Cloak 1/2 | Detection 1/2/3) Sheoul Magus (Path 1 needs 3rd option) Siege Monger (Charge 1/2/3 | Multiattack 1/2) Soulcrawler (Massive Leap 1/2) Succubus (Charm 1/2/3 | Resistance: Fire 1/2/3) Thunderhoof (Charge 1/2/3) Trap Spider (Poison 1/2/3) Undertortoise (Defender 1/2/3) Void Spider (Reflection 1/2/3) Vothsair Ireguard (Multiattack 1/2/3 | Rend 1/2/3) Vothsair Reaver (Blood Frenzy 1/2/3)] Warogg (Berserker 1/2 | Resistance: Physical 1/2/3) Zoalt, Sky Serpent (Flamestrike 1/2/3 | Lightning Storm 1/2/3) (SKIPPED STITCHED) I probably missed a couple when zipping through, but this is considerably more than enough to work with. I skipped champions we've already brought up in the thread.
Hey, give me a hand. I would really, really like to put this guy in my BG and be a anti-range option just like in the picture. Problem is that he's not near as runnable as his own "combo" suggests. Indeed, Arrow Throw is by far an obsolete abbility. We now have Counterattack: ranged...which for some reason we don't have it more despite being the "anti-range" faction. Ellusive automatically makes ALL ranged attacks void...again, why don't we have this? Absorb and Arrow Eater (another flavourful abbility unjustingly avialable to more champions in other factions than ours) pretty much would be the best options...maybe he takes the shot, but he later gives it back...ok, that's going somewhere else. Only instance where an abbility like that works is either by making the first attack automatically miss (Granite Bracers). And to be frank I don't trust neither Dodge or Block anymore. Just one attack every one or two turns and nothing else? Feels weak. Besides, the guy lost Multi-attack, so it feels like he's made to some somehow attrack the very first ranged attack. It won't happen. So, I would really like some advice in order to make him runable without triggering nerf calls.
I'll totally take the time and think of something for Deep Elf Monk I know Sepulcher had some ideas when it comes to him. Right now CA: Ranged can be used against you, and it doesn't inherently have to come with poor stats (It's probably overpriced and should have a different cost for being on a ranged unit vs a melee one -- I wish that was addressed). I'll take a swing at Deep Elves next.
Because of the new abilities? Happy to limit my suggestions to pre-existing abilities, if that's more helpful from a revamp perspective. I agree....strangler might seem somewhat random. I thought it was easier to use a pre-existing melee imp rather than design a new melee imp. Strangler has shadowspawn though--didn't realize it went to base--but the goal was to have a melee pet while bloodguard remained a ranged backup for the imp.
Like the bloodguard suggestion especially, I would need to work out the Nora costs involved but it looks good.
I should of came here to discuss angel of pain. I should stop making bad thread decisions while high because I think it's funny. Anyways, does anyone else think angel of pain could help out in the blood theme? If she is going to have physical attack then rend for a combo line seems a waste to me. She imo is one of the lesser angels out of the 8 where she doesn't have much of impact besides damage, which I understand is UD's thing, but she's an angel who could at least get a little extra. What I was thinking was replace stab, and the rend combo line for something that can support a blood theme. Now I'm not really the guy to suggest what those abilities should be, just would like her to be looked at some. But I do want blood, more blood for the blood god.
