Pre-revamp, I would have fought tooth and nail against you on this point, but now I must grudgingly concede. Broken Bones was amazingly efficient at 28 nora, but his "best" iteration now costs 42, meaning unless you take Berserk Attack 1 (highly useless, and even then he's not at his previous cost) you're not getting your nora's worth simply deploying him anymore. He needs to stall for longer, eat up more AP/nora, do more of everything basically for you to come out ahead. One of the strengths of old Broken Bones was his minimal time investment required to get the most of him; if you deployed him and merely sent him towards a font, you got your nora's worth. Not so anymore, and Skeletal Berserker and Zombie Behemoth outshine Broken Bones in the efficiency slot.
Go to poxbox.net and see. It probably would be, but I wouldn't trade a legendary for non-legendary runes since they're pretty tough to get compared to exos and lower
Cheap Meat was probably sleeper Tier 1 four or five years ago, but after the ridiculous nerfs to Death Harvester, Broken Bones, and Decayed Mercenary, the deck just doesn't have what it takes in full faction anymore. The Death Harvester nerf especially means the BG needs to rely on a narrow range of nora costs to work properly, and there aren't enough champions in that space to make it function. Loss of most sources of sunder, increased nora costs, no new support runes with a slew of more hostile rules released, all these compound to make the BG more fragile and less threatening. There was an entire thread devoted to this list when I first drafted the idea back then, but it has been sadly consumed by time and the forum transition. For a current list, I'm not too sure what to suggest, but don't get your hopes up. This BG may still have a chance /SL, but its full faction power is a shadow of what is used to be. Edit: Essentially, the BG thrives around the DH magic number of 60 - that's the max nora value at which you receive the full 12% return. Anything above 70 begins to get painful (<10% return). This number range is especially important because champions grow in efficiency as their cost increases. While that would normally be offset by the larger % return of DH, that's no longer the case. The best bet is to rely on the most efficient numbers bags up to ~70 nora nora, backed up by DH and UT. Old standouts at lower costs, such as BB and Decayed Merc, may still hold a spot as break runners for fonts.
You sound awfully familiar, and your name is on the tip of my tongue, but I can't seem to place you.......I do recall that thread though about cheap meat though, it was the first time I began to look at Broken Bones in that loving way I do now.
Yeah, my forum name used to be Kaldona, rather than Kalasle (my in-game name). I played a lot several years ago, and was the guy who first drafted Cheap Meat as a legit deck. Was real big into FW, especially active between Drums of War and Maljaran Frontier. Pretty sure I remember your name from back then as well. Was a big proponent of using off beat solutions like Doom as a hole-in-one, Elsari Siren as a pocket wrench, and singleton Boneguard Infantry for weary, if that sort of thing rings any bells.
Holy geeberz, Kaldona! Welcome back! You're a hero to the entire faction, you know that right? Cheap meat decks owe you their undead souls, as do I for getting me to fall in love with the idea. To this day, I can't build a FW deck without some kind of cheap meat module. Doom is actually getting nerf calls now, if you can believe it.
Nerf calls? That's dang hilarious - people were calling it shoebox when it came out. And yeah, I'm busy with a lot of stuff, but am looking to come back to Pox casually. Its heartening to hear whatever I did helped out the game. Might start up a thread for a more comprehensive and modern take on Cheap Meat. Good to be back.
I have been having a lot of fun with this cheap meat bg: http://poxbase.com/deck/C4TC74CgMC93C9fCpQCuJC4WS4IS2mSnS4fS5arTR2Pr8 I would add shadowshanks and polluted martyrs if i could but they disappeared from poxbox and trader. I am amazed at how many champions i can just constantly deploy,cheap meat is amazing.
That looks like a solid list. Couple of questions for curiosity's sake: 1) Skeletal Berserker is a good rune, but does shrine damage, which you have no long-term means of offsetting. How do you play around that? How does it influence your deployment decisions? How has he actually fared in-game? What upgrades do you run on him? 2) What upgrades do you run on Death Caster? Is it an important rune for your BG? 3) You are running 16 champions, which can be a little low if they die quickly. Do you have problems with champion deployment options? Are you ever at risk of running out? 4) You've doubled down on problem-solver spells like Soulreave and Steal Life. How often are you happy to be running 2 as opposed to 1 for each of those? Is Steal Life an important spell to have around? 5) Any particular reason for the double Death Harvester? 6) Blood Fiend has high HP, good damage potential, and high effective speed for a low cost. But, I've been in the past leery of the rune because of its frailty - he has to consume his own HP in serious chunks to even move around. What role has he served in your BG? Do you use him often? Any parts where he is particularly strong? Particularly weak? I realize now that the above may be more than "a couple of questions," but would still appreciate whatever you have the time to respond to. -- For that matter, anyone else in this thread who could throw out their own answers would be awesome.
I'll take a stab at these, if you don't mind Netherzen. 1. I can't speak for his deck, but when I run them in mine I take the bare-bones build of Berserker 1 and Blood Frenzy 1. This keeps him at an incredible 30 nora for a 14 damage 44 HP unit that eventually gets 16 damage and Multi 1. Short-Lived is more of a boon than a bane in his case, due to his cheapness. Any nora or AP spent dealing with him will simply be wasted effort, since he will die automatically eventually. If you grab his globe (a double globe mind you, due to Short-Lived) you get about 11 nora shaved off his cost. I personally run Tome of Hate in my cheap meat decks where I also run Berserkers; they've all but replaced Broken Bones in the efficient distraction category. With a Tome down, you can basically deploy them at will, but until then, depending on the map, I'll be a little more careful how many I drop. Sometimes I will scry less if I feel I'll be needing them often. 2. Again, I can't speak for his deck, but in mine Deathcaster is there to deal with problematic champions. While Doom does a decent job at this, the effect is delayed, and you find yourself with the same problem as the opponent when facing a Skeletal Berserker. Death Pact a tank, then send him in for a bombing run and re-coup your losses with Soulsift 2, which refunds an astounding 34 nora on death ( I take Soulsift and Iron Will, rounding Deathcaster's cost to 85). As far as importance goes, I would venture to say that if you're not running Shadowshanks, Deathcaster makes your life a whole lot easier vs. factions like IS and SL who love their tough, roadblock-type runes. 3. I agree with you here, 16 champions does seem a little low for a cheap meat deck. I'd say something closer to 18 is the minimum, but I've seen players use up to 25. 4. This is one of my secret pet peeves. I would much rather have one of each of these spells and have room for more variety, even as far as playing full highlander. In his case though, I'd say that without Shanks, Doom, or Reaper's Blade, running 2 Soulreaves isn't a bad option, especially since his damage is almost entirely physical. The double Steal Life decision strikes me as odd, since healing is not at all necessary in cheap meat, where literally everything but the Bird is expendable. Soul Bane would be a better option, but I get the feeling that with 16 champions, he's worried about keeping them alive long enough to deploy more. He also runs no Dusk Creepers, so having 2x Despoil makes sense as an effective, but impractical, way to grab globes without putting his champions at risk. 5. I'd say draws; running 2 makes it more likely you'll have one when you need it, and an early Bird will get your nora gen engine going fast. 6. When I run Bloodfiend, it's almost entirely for the early game. He's basically an 11 speed unit first turn with Exert 3 upgraded. He survives long enough to cap a font or two, maybe contest another, then dies. That's all he's needed for IMO, and he's just another of those champions that will end up dying eventually, so any resources directed towards him will be for naught. If he manages to get into actual combat, he performs decently, but don't expect him to live more than a round. His main problem is that ranged units pelt him down before he gets anywhere and he ends up not having the HP to spare for attacking. Late-game, where his font running skills are not really needed, he falls off hard, and you're better off deploying something else. This is why I recommend only running 1 to maintain as many useful deploy options as possible.
Thanks for the detailed reply JazzMan! Your answers make a lot of sense (though I would certainly still love to hear Netherzen's thoughts). I've been averse to running shrine damage because of the eventual burden Tome of Hate puts on the Harvester, but it sounds like I'll have to give the Berserkers a whirl. I'll stick in a singleton Blood Fiend and see how he runs, those are good arguments for an Exertion 3 build. Death Caster does seem like a good pickup, I'll try to scrounge one from somewhere. Generally, I agree with you: because of how few runes there are in a BG, how quickly champs and spells cycle back around in FW, and how much a Meat deck needs to have solutions, I'm inclined to run only 1 of a rune unless I would ALWAYS want a second one in play. Doubling down on Soulreave does make sense for handling super champs, ghosts, etc., especially when the BG is relatively light numerical damage. Doubling up on all of the spells just seemed a little excessive. Would also be great to hear about the decision making process for the particulars in anyone else's BG. =)
So far the bg is doing very well,but i am still in uncommon league. 1) Shrine damage in this bg is not very important,because i can deploy a champion every turn,and as they slowly go towards enemy i got a lot of board presence from shrine to font area,since there are constantly champions coming in.It might seem melee centric,but with 6 disease breaths,deathcasters and theirs deathpact and locusts swarm i will often deal a lot of damage from range.I also have mobi/life steal to oneround them if they become a problem or stop them with cheap champions and grim well/grabby hands spells.If they go near shrine then i can also pop a skeleton berserk or blood fiend.Skeleton berserker is very good if you can plan his turns,you need to have an idea of what are you going to do with him if you deploy him,i run him with berserk 3 and blood frenzy 1,blood frenzy 1 is just enough,rank 2 is not much better,the reason i run berserker 3 is because i often miss that 1 ap for an extra attack. 2)I run default upgrades because i still haven't got enough cp,once i level him i will experiment to see which upgrades i like most.He is capable of dealing with nearly anything for a very reasonable cost,and i can often keep him alive for a second death pact,i got lot of control with just blocking enemy with cheap champions and grabby hands/well and i can heal deathcaster with steal life or disease breath(i got 6 disease breath champions and few auras so he can almost always heal at least a little bit). 3)I have never run out of champions to deploy,and i had a hour or so long game(it was against sl dragons).Sometimes at start it can be a bit tricky to pick which champion to deploy but once the early game is over,i can just churn out a champion per round. 4)Soulreave has saved me and is a great counter to a lot of things,and very often if i struggle with something,like equip or a champion my opponent will try to repeat the tactic so a second soulreave has been very helpful.Steal life is a very efficient spell,a clean 30 hp transfer and is very good for finishing off champions,i will often cast 2 steal life's in one turn when pushing.The healing aspect also helps bloodfiend and deathcaster. 5)There is a lot of dying going on in this bg so a death harvester is a very efficent champion and is mobile in early game,it also counters stealth and with so many champions on board the bird is often free to cap a font,often followed up with a grim well to block an enemy from even contesting it back. 6)He can grab fonts in early game.I run him with life drinker and keep him in the back,and then i use him to finish off an enemy champion.He can move 8 spaces and then attack so he can easily stay out of threat range.If that fails i often combo with steal life.Capping a early mid font or healing an bloodfiend for a huge amount because of lifedrinker and high base hp is a big advantage.
Thanks for the response. It's good to hear different attitudes towards the various concerns a cheaper BG faces, particularly shrine damage and champ numbers. You do make a good point that Steal Life is 30 hit points for 35 nora, which is a pretty efficient swing.
I am glad i helped,but i am not a very good player. I think i am doing rather well,as nearly everyone i played against has complained about my bg. I have yet to destroy a shrine or win in any realistic way,cheap meat seems to win by exerting my opponent and slowly draining his will and lifeforce until he/she is but a lifeless shadow of his former self and unable to go on against the unedning undead horde. I also like that i feel like i have a functional faction bonus for once.
Thanks for the welcome. If anyone is thinking about trying cheap meat,its a bit complex but very rewarding and this is how it feels most of the time:
In case I didn't itterate this before. The point of the bg I was addressing in this thread was to basically make it hard mode for yourself, but if you win on hard mode, it feels damn good. lol
I had thoughts about this style of a bg. Matter a fact I am almost 100% certain I talk to great extent about the possibility of this bg while we were on Skype together. Side Note: I thought this was a thread to attract Meatman. XD
Another option instead of Blood Fiends for early deploys is elsari mason. With shrine exertion he can effectively have 12 ap on 2nd turn and later in the game he can mason. He's not as effective in combat stat wise unless paired with boost but can be interesting to consider as he is low cost.
I like the build and understand the reasoning the build is like it is ...But......Where is the closer the one that can enjoy the death of his comrades? Serk with Vendetta used to be the recipient of the carnage. With 6 lumbering champs, 2 5 speeders, and 2 with manic, and no tome scrying to find playable champs will hurt in the long run as well as your first 2 to 3 turns could bring deep woes. Oh and Welcome to where the dead lives.
