Mutants (mostly in SL, but a little bit in UD too) are a fun idea that hasn't ever really worked in Pox. I'd like to hear some thoughts and ideas on where players think the theme should go. I am open to completely gutting the current functionality and building something new ala Salaman (but note that I can only do a few new abilities), or augmenting/modifying the existing mechanics some so they work better. ~ EXAMPLE IDEA: Charges are removed from all Mutation abilities. Instead, they will start on CD and cost some small amount of AP, but function the same otherwise. This means Mutation champs no longer need charge generating abilities and can be designed with better kits. Doctor's "mutate" ability can be changed to reset/reduce CD of mutation abilities.
The abilities you gain from mutation should be random. Only then can we have true abominations. *Edit* Not to mention it will be really fun.
According to me, first thing to do is giving Homicidal Tough and Draksar Persecutor the mutant race too, it's strange that they have a mutation ability without having the mutant race. Then i would modify both the mutation abilities and the mutate ability: i would remove charges needed for the mutation abilities, put them at 2ap cost at same cooldown. For the mutate ability it could still give the mutation stat for the non-mutant creature, but it could give a random mutation ability to a mutant instead at the first use on a mutant (for example, it could give mutation:leap to the mutant yeti on its first use on it, and then give the mutate atk/def/spd on other use on that yeti). Ps sorry for my english xD
apart from ability modifications, are you considering changing spells/relic/equip to grant aditional stuff to mutants? for example "Horrific Mutation" and a couple others? because a theme's synergy hanging only by the "mutate" ability is not a good enough foundation to build from
I'll do what I can with whatever code-time I have for it. Some of them may have to come further down the line. This is mostly about the core mechanic.
Your suggestions with Mutate should have the reset grant back the AP it costed them to upgrade to the next mutation in the line. Then, Mutate also reverts the Mutant back to the previous mutation in the chain. This would allow for potential double hits. This would especially be useful for Mutants who have little to no real range and would spend AP on moving into range for a melee hit.
Alright thank you. It's not about changing from Charges to AP, it's not enough. Stat stacking and superchamping sounds boring and it's even worse in factions which do not orbit around healing and keeping stuff alive so those two directions seem a bit untenable as mechanics to me. Almost all SL themes are about stacking power and powerturn so with mutants i would like to see different stuff, i would like to see reflected this words: "versatility (from different type of attacks to alt damage sources)" "adaptability (be able to change it's strong points to whatever is needed in the battle)" "quick response(to not need to snowball nor be in the game for 50 turns to be effective)" For example a champ with a an ability kit made for melee combat and when used "Mutate" on it it's ability kit is changed to ranged combat. Example 1: Name: Example Mutant Melee/Range Atk: 14 Spd: 7 Def: 2 Rng: 1 HP: 50 -Basic attack -Mutation: Melee/Ranged: "This champeon has Clamp, CounterAttack Melee and Unstoppable, if this champeon is targeted by the ability "Mutate" it looses those abilities and instead it gets -5 dmg, -1 spd, Rend 1, CounterAttack Range, Recoil, -10 max HP and it's range becomes 4-6" Another Example is a champ that deals damage of a single type and with the ability "Mutate" you can rotate it's types. Example 2: Name: Example Mutant Dmg Type Atk: 12 Spd: 6 Def: 1 Rng: 1 Hp: 45 -Mutation Element: This champ has a Fire basic attack, Charred 3 and Fire Bomb 3, If this champeon is targeted by the "Mutate" ability it instead has Acid basic attack, Scoured 3, and Acid bomb, if targeted again by "Mutate" it will have Frost dmg and if targeted again it will get fire and so on. It rolls its elemental attacks kits. *Another option is for it to have "Tetra shield" and to gain attacks of the element it is inmune to. This "Mutation-ability"-kits could be made to combine all kind of different roles and needs (Like from single target to AoE, or for a tank to roll from different defensive kits, i will list ideas below), it would still be "Mutate" dependant so is not abusable outside theme but you dont need to wait for it to snowball or to live 9999 turns. I would like to promote the followin runes to interact with this mechanic and the theme: Spells: -Horrific mutation: To count as being targeted by "Mutate" so it rolls the ability kits. -Taint: To also count as being targeted by "Mutate" so it rolls the ability kits. -Blood of the Dragon: to also grant regen 3 to "mutated(the condition)" mutants for the same ammount of turns the current effect gives. reason is that if you get tainted by the dragons the blood is corrosive for the enemy but heals you. Relics: -Clutch of Vindrax: to grant "Blessed" to mutants within the same range it heals dragonkins. Reason is that in SL lore being tainted and deformed for the SL gods is considered a blessing. Equips: -Dragonclaw: to also "Mutate" the champ equipped, so it also gets the random stat and counts for the ability kit roll. -Poison Fang(change name to Tainting Poison): To grant the ability "Mutate" Mutation Kit ideas: Change from a Tank(pure dmg reduction) to no defense but regen/healself. (so you make it absorb lots of dmg and then fall back so it can heal itself). Could also get "Retreat" for the healing part and less max HP so it never heals 100%. Change from Melee to Ranged offense, at the cost of damage and speed. Change from heavy hitter(Explosive attack for example or any attack with CD) to support. Change from different types of dmg, works for Auras, Bombs, Basic Attacks, Alt Attacks, DoTs, etc. Change from high speed low damage to Heavy hitter with lumbering or weary. Change from AoE like Water Vortex or bombs to single target like Flame strike. *i will add more later*
So the problem with having such radically different ones is that all work specific to a champion is that you are basically asking for tons of new abilities and I simply do not have enough code time for so much new stuff for old runes. For example, note how the Salaman rework created a few new Salaman specific abilities and then used the Provision: X template (which can still be used on non-Salaman) and other existing relic/equipment abilities to flesh out. That said, I think the general idea is cool. I like using Mutate as a keyword/trigger here. We note that the versatility inherent in these abilities does not need to cost the champion more than the base amounts of the abilities it would get as long we cost the Mutate triggers appropriately. Adding "Mutate" triggers would be fairly simple probably and I don't count those, though we'd have to figure out how it actually works (it'd probably give a condition and then if it already has the condition it removes it, but the condition cannot be cleansed or dispelled). What we may have to do is do a few of these at a time, focusing on creating them for new runes, and then use the same Mutation ability for older runes. The problem is that these abilities seem like they'd work best if they were defined for each rune specifically, and almost every mutate is going to need one of these. There's also the problem that it eats up a ton of design space for the theme when every Mutant is basically doing at least 2 roles, if not more in addition to whatever they get from upgrades.
Perhaps it can be structured to be something more like this. There are a series of "Mutated: X" conditions. For example: Mutated: Range (+X MAX/MIN RNG, Strike) Mutated: Rage (Fury, Charge 3) Mutated: Blubber (Colossal) (doesn't matter, just illustrative) etc. Then, we take ALL of those conditions and use them in combinations for abilities: Mutation: A - This champion has Mutated: Rage. If this champion has the Mutated condition, it gains Mutated: Range instead. Mutation: B - This champion has Mutated: Rage. If this champion has the Mutated condition, it gains Mutated: Blubber instead. So the idea is that the list of possible things the abilities "swaps" between is limited, but we combo them in various ways, and the Mutation: X ability structure is the same for every thing and we can "copy pasta" it and plug in new conditions. The conditions it grants would be less dramatic than the ones you are thinking of so that they are more readily re-usable. Then they can combine with the champion's remaining kit to create more unique champions. This reduces the code overhead as we aren't custom tailoring every aspect to the champion it is on.
Note that the above still leaves the possibility open for one-offs. So if we want to create a new champ (probably LEG or EXO) that does have a dramatic role shift (ala Cinderpede), that can still happen within this framework.
I'm still down with simplifying things. Two abilities that all mutants have. Mutate skill and Mutate attack. Cost 2-4-6-8 and so on nora each time it's used. Gain a random ability or attack (Flying, Absorb, Execute, Acid Bomb, etc etc) It'd be fun as all hell to play, and wouldn't require much coding if I could guess right.
Most players do not like Randomness of this type, but yes, it is true that it'd be an easy code and we could create a good variety of these and spread them around at little code cost.
I was thinking about the fact that the state "mutated" currently stacks, so for even numbers of "mutated" states you get the melee kit and for odd numbers you get the Ranged kit. I made up this mechanic thinking about the few mutants we currently have, i did not think for future theme expansion and that might be a problem i admit it. There are so many ability counterparts(for example impair vision and impairing feedback, or at least 10 ways of reducing ranged dmg) that i don't think they would overlap roles soon but i also did not consider the complexity for coding. If thos "Mutated: X" conditions are so easy to make then how many of them could be made for the patch that introduces this change? and how many "Mutation: A, B, C, etc." combinations could be made? would that be as easy as copy pasta as you say? It's a bit too complicated, i mean with your template you have a Mutant champ with Mutation: A which works with "mutated" conditions from "Mutated: Rage" and at the same time you have the "Mutated" condition from the "Mutate" ability.
For the sake of grammar simplification i will try to make an example of your mutation template so other ppl can read it easyly: *The "Mutate" ability on the doctor gives the "Mutated" condition, which is a stat buff. *Sok creates conditions which we will call "Evolution", for this example we will create the followin evolutions: Evolution: Range (+3 MinRange, +3 MaxRange) Evolution: Sniper (Precision, Piercing Shot 2) Name: Mutant Example 1 Atk: 12 Spd: 6 Def: 2 Rng: 1 HP: 45 -Basic Attack -"Mutation: EagleEye": This champeon has "Evolution: Range", if this champ has the "Mutated" condition, it gains "Evolution: Sniper". Sok, what i dont like about this mechanic is that it is a one-time mutation... would the "even/odd" "mutated" condition counter i mentioned above work with something like this?
I don't think it's complicated. It's just naming, we'd figure out better words for the things. And we may not even name the Mutated condition as a thing, but I did it that way instead of "targeted by Mutate" because that's how it'd probably work if we want spells to be able to trigger it and such, or else the Mutation ability would have to individually specify every source of a "Mutate." At the same time, it'd also let us create differnt kinds of abilities that trigger the Mutation abilities instead of just Mutate that does it, etc. Basically, if "Mutated" is the triggering condition, anything can grant it. It's not that the buff conditions are easy to make necessarily, but that if they can be re-used, it means less work overall. I am not sure how many could be made, but we'd get more total Mutation abilities for sure.
I didn't intend for it to be one-time. We'd just add/remove the Mutated condition. So if you already have it, we'd remove it. If you don't have it, we add it. Odd/Even COULD work, but it's a bit more overhead and eventually you'd have a huge bar of conditions under your champ
I.. disagree, with the current CD on mutate you can stack it 3 times, with luck. Unless you plan to release more champs with mutate then imo it stackin is not a problem. Now if it is too complex to code then ok, i understand. So wait, would you be changing the "permanent" aspect of the "Mutated" condition and the buff it comes with?
Maybe we are misunderstanding each other. You are suggesting that the Mutation: X ability counts the number of the triggering Mutated conditions to determine which buff to give right? 1 time = Buff A 2 times = Buff B 3 times = Buff A 4 times = Buff B So if you hit it with Mutate that is one, then Horrific Mutation, then Taint, etc. Maybe we have a global spell that does it, etc. And most champs will end up with numerous OTHER conditions thru other means also, so I'd be reluctant to do this way when there are alternatives, especially when the condition itself does nothing in of itself. No? It works exactly the way I believe you are suggesting. You either get Buff A, or Buff B. You start with Buff A, but if you have the condition Mutated, you get Buff B. Meanwhile, sources of Mutated would say "The affected champion gains Mutated. If it already has Mutated, it loses it instead." That's all, it's just a toggle. ~ Anyway, this is just implementation details, I am sure the programmers will figure out a way that makes sense for them as well.
I'm sorry, i forgot i sugested for spells and equips to grant "mutated" xD derp You are right, i just got stuck with the idea that we were changing the "Mutation: X" abilities and forgot that "Mutate" and "Mutated" could be changed. Aaalright!, im glad you liked my suggestion, lets see if anyone else has more ideas. If this idea or any gets selected please lets brainstorm in the forums what the buffs and conditions could grant and changes for spells and stuff, its really fun, i enjoy this. For example a spell that grants a buff if the champ is melee and another if it is ranged (SL with this new mutations and champs with ammunition like Rocketeer, UD has the spell "Cowards Reach" and ammunition too, lots of synergy to harvest!)
